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Science and Torah

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malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:22 pm

The problem with the two of you (Mistyrose and Apricot) is that you are so enthralled by scientists that you are sure that whatever they say must be correct. I see why you choose to remain anonymous.

Zehava

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:22 pm

malki2 wrote:

Correct. It’s a religion.

It’s a scientific theory

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:28 pm

malki2 wrote:

The problem with the two of you (Mistyrose and Apricot) is that you are so enthralled by scientists that you are sure that whatever they say must be correct. I see why you choose to remain anonymous.

I'm not enthralled by scientists?? Nor am I sure that whatever they say must be correct.

I'm going to stand by what I said. Science and Philosophy parted ways in the 19th century.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:28 pm

malki2 wrote:

1. It’s not every single person in the scientific community. There are many scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. Many of them are afraid to open their mouths for fear of losing their jobs. And yes. Of course the other scientists are all absolutely wrong. Wouldn’t you say the same about brilliant scientists who are Atheists? I don’t understand your question. Haven’t you ever met a brilliant person who was wrong about something?

Of course I have
But ALL OF THEM??

Besides that intelligent design ist not the theory that the world came into being as is but that creation and development of species is directed by an intelligent being (I.e. Hashem)

And I don’t know how many scientists you know Or how entrenched into the scientific community you are , but I happen to know an awful lot of them ( being one myself) and they are not closeted believers worried about losing their jobs
And I really haven’t met any scientists who believe in intelligent design.

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:28 pm

Zehava wrote:

It’s a scientific theory

Not according to the Evolutionists. They admit that it’s a religion.

Zehava

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:29 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Please!! Take me with you!!! Very Happy

I officially welcome you to the list

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:29 pm

malki2 wrote:

Evolutionists themselves agree that their theory is FULL of problems and that it takes a giant leap of faith to believe in Evolution. All of them admit to this. At least learn what the problems are.

Except scientist don't use the word "belief" with reference to their work.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:30 pm

malki2 wrote:

The problem with the two of you (Mistyrose and Apricot) is that you are so enthralled by scientists that you are sure that whatever they say must be correct. I see why you choose to remain anonymous.

Malki2. I am not enthralled with „THEM“
I am THEM. I am a scientist
I don’t see what my decision to remain anonymous has to do with this

Zehava

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:33 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Except scientist don't use the word "belief" with reference to their work.

Exactly
They use words like theories, evidence, studies...

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:35 pm

I'll post this here. I'm talking about the bolded.

https://science.sciencemag.org...../1523

Things have continued in much the same way to the present. There is professional evolutionary biology: mathematical, experimental, not laden with value statements. But, you are not going to find the answer to the world's mysteries or to societal problems if you open the pages of Evolution or Animal Behaviour. Then, sometimes from the same person, you have evolution as secular religion, generally working from an explicitly materialist background and solving all of the world's major problems, from racism to education to conservation. Consider Edward O. Wilson, rightfully regarded as one of the most outstanding professional evolutionary biologists of our time, and the author of major works of straight science. In his On Human Nature, he calmly assures us that evolution is a myth that is now ready to take over Christianity. And, if this is so, “the final decisive edge enjoyed by scientific naturalism will come from its capacity to explain traditional religion, its chief competition, as a wholly material phenomenon. Theology is not likely to survive as an independent intellectual discipline” (3). An ardent progressionist, Wilson sees moral norms emerging from our need to keep the evolutionary process moving forward. In his view, this translates as a need to promote biodiversity, for Wilson believes that humans have evolved in a symbiotic relationship with nature. A world of plastic would kill us humans, literally as well as metaphorically. For progress to continue, we must preserve the Brazilian rainforests and other areas of high organic density and diversity (4).

So, what does our history tell us? Three things. First, if the claim is that all contemporary evolutionism is merely an excuse to promote moral and societal norms, this is simply false. Today's professional evolutionism is no more a secular religion than is industrial chemistry. Second, there is indeed a thriving area of more popular evolutionism, where evolution is used to underpin claims about the nature of the universe, the meaning of it all for us humans, and the way we should behave. I am not saying that this area is all bad or that it should be stamped out. I am all in favor of saving the rainforests. I am saying that this popular evolutionism—often an alternative to religion—exists. Third, we who cherish science should be careful to distinguish when we are doing science and when we are extrapolating from it, particularly when we are teaching our students. If it is science that is to be taught, then teach science and nothing more. Leave the other discussions for a more appropriate time.

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:41 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Malki2. I am not enthralled with „THEM“
I am THEM. I am a scientist
I don’t see what my decision to remain anonymous has to do with this

Good. I am also THEM. Good to meet you. Now if any of you have open minds, you are all welcome to purchase the book I recommended and see if it doesn’t open your eyes a little. There’s actual evidence in the book that belief in Evolution is on par with faith in a religion. You will see who the illogical and unscientific people actually are. Other than that I think we’ve covered everything controversial today. Unless you want to tell me how it makes sense to believe in X-tianity.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:35 pm

malki2 wrote:

Ok now you are going too far
A heated discussion about beliefs is one thing
Casting aspersions on my Judaism is just mean and below the belt
Shame on you
The only THEM you are is the thought police

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:36 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Really? Silly? You do realize that minds possibly greater than yours and definitely more trained in this discipline have thought about and studied this deeply and have come to the realization that it makes sense.
Why is the world coming into being as is ,with lots of evidence and paleontological evidence to the opposite, less silly than believing that Hashem made the world and set it up to develop and adapt to environmental changes?
No matter whether the theory is correct or not,
calling it silly is condescending and I feel the last recourse of someone running out of arguments.

Evolution was first proposed as a theory long before there was any evidence at all. So it's not as if scientists examined the evidence and were forced to come to the conclusion of evolution, it was completely the other way around. It was - we like this theory now let's find the evidence to prove it. As you know, this is far from being a true scientific method, but that's how it was done in this case.

The theory of evolution has actually "evolved" over the years, so it would be interesting to know which particular theory you think the evidence supports.

I don't think believing in evolution is silly and of course there are many highly intelligent people who are on that side, but I do agree with malki2 that this is a religion like any other, as it requires many great leaps of belief.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:37 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I'm not enthralled by scientists?? Nor am I sure that whatever they say must be correct.

I'm going to stand by what I said. Science and Philosophy parted ways in the 19th century.

Where does philosophy come into this conversation?

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:44 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Ok now you are going too far
A heated discussion about beliefs is one thing
Casting aspersions on my Judaism is just mean and below the belt
Shame on you
The only THEM you are is the thought police

I wasn’t casting aspersions on anything. But if all that makes sense because intelligent people believe in it, then there are many intelligent Xtians. Their belief also makes more sense because they don’t believe that highly sophisticated organisms evolved through a necessary series of thousands of mutations.

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:51 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Ok now you are going too far
A heated discussion about beliefs is one thing
Casting aspersions on my Judaism is just mean and below the belt
Shame on you
The only THEM you are is the thought police

And actually you yourself cast aspersions on your Judaism because you asked Zehava to take you with her on the Apikores team. We’re you serious or joking? And why shouldn’t aspersions be cast on someone who says that the Torah doesn’t mean what it says just because some scientists say differently?

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 5:01 pm

malki2 wrote:

1. that was a joke. I assume you have heard of them?
2. You know as well as me that there are questions on how literally the Torah is meant to be understood.

I truly do not understand where this vitriol is coming from. Why are you behaving in this fashion?
I can only assume you are having a bad day

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 5:05 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Come on. When the Torah says that Hashem created the animals, it did not mean that He allowed them to evolve from non-life. Of course some things are not meant to be taken literally. But you are literally warping the pesukim to fit in with your scientific beliefs. At least be honest.

malki2

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 5:08 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I guess that I didn’t like your joke, just like you didn’t like mine.

bigsis144

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 5:14 pm

Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim, page 211:

Quote:

First, the account given in Scripture of the Creation is not, as is generally believed, intended to be in all its parts literal.

Quote:

We have thus clearly stated and explained our opinion, that we agree with Aristotle in one half of his theory*. For we believe that this Universe remains perpetually with the same properties with which the Creator has endowed it, and that none of these will ever be changed except by way of miracle in some individual instances, although the Creator has the power to change the whole Universe, to annihilate it, or to remove any of its properties.

* The Rambam disagrees with Aristotle’s belief that the universe is constant, with no beginning or end.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/j.....6.htm

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