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Rebbe teaching wrong pronunciation

 
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:15 am
My two young elementary aged sons both pronounce the same word in davening wrong. It’s a simple word in birchas hashachar. I don’t want to use that word here out of privacy, but suppose a word like nishmasi in Modeh Ani, being pronounced nishmisa. It cannot be a different havara, but simply a confusion of nekudos between two syllables in the word.

I always assumed that they got the confusion from other kids in the class.

But now with Zoom learning, I get to hear the class davening. And I heard the rebbe pronouncing it that way.

Would you make the rebbe aware or let it go? Do you think the rebbe would want to know? If so, how would you go about it?

I don’t want to be disrespectful. He’s nearly old enough to be my father and I’m not comfortable correcting him. But he’s teaching young children wrong pronunciation in a basic part of tefillah.
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amother




Mistyrose
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:19 am
I have the same problem. My son's teacher is saying ukshartam instead of uchsavtam in shema Can't Believe It
She's a lot younger than I and not a rebbi and I still don't know what to do.
When I say shema w my kids , either at bedtime or when I daven w them on the weekends, I make sure to pronounce uchsavtam very clearly.
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pleaseandthankyou




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:23 am
You can ask the Rebbe in a respectful manner. Something like "I always thought this word is pronounced..."

You may be surprised, but some nikudos are sometimes interchangeable and written differently in other siddurim. I've seen segol vs tzayray interchanged
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:25 am
Ooh. That is really sticky.
On the one hand, correct pronunciation in tefilla is essential.
On the other hand, you don't want to offend the rebbi.
I'd also be worked about the rebbi's reaction. Will he take the critique in the right way and accept it graciously?

As a parent, I'd probably want to go up to the menahel so as not to offend the rebbi, BUT I am a teacher, and it is very offensive when that is done to me. Especially because the menahel might not say it so nicely and may make it obvious, unintentionally, that it was you who complained.

(This happens to me this month, and it was VERY upsetting. I would have preferred the parent call me about an issue, than have the principal give me a five minute mussar speech and accidentally drop a clue that she didn't think was a clue, as to who the complaining parent was... At least the principal called me and apologized a few hours later.)

So unless you are scared of the rebbi, which you hopefully are not, don't skip him and go straight up to the authorities.

Either teach it to your kids properly (everyone makes mistakes...)
Or contact rebbi, because it's wrong for all the other kids as well.

It will be interesting to see what other imas suggest.
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:26 am
pleaseandthankyou wrote:
You can ask the Rebbe in a respectful manner. Something like "I always thought this word is pronounced..."

You may be surprised, but some nikudos are sometimes interchangeable and written differently in other siddurim. I've seen segol vs tzayray interchanged


I like part one.

Part two- where have you seen nekudos interchanged?
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:30 am
Maybe just ask the principal if it's a school thing?
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Mayflower




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:52 am
Maybe tell the rebbe you noticed your kids pronounce this word incorrectly, without saying anything about him, and ask if he can help you correct them.

This way you won't criticize the rebbe and he'll either change his pronunciation or explain this is his mesorah.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
I like part one.

Part two- where have you seen nekudos interchanged?


I’ve seen nekudos and letters interchanged sometimes, in places where there are differing opinions.

This, however, isn’t that. The way he pronounces it is not an actual word.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 11:00 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Ooh. That is really sticky.
On the one hand, correct pronunciation in tefilla is essential.
On the other hand, you don't want to offend the rebbi.
I'd also be worked about the rebbi's reaction. Will he take the critique in the right way and accept it graciously?

As a parent, I'd probably want to go up to the menahel so as not to offend the rebbi, BUT I am a teacher, and it is very offensive when that is done to me. Especially because the menahel might not say it so nicely and may make it obvious, unintentionally, that it was you who complained.

(This happens to me this month, and it was VERY upsetting. I would have preferred the parent call me about an issue, than have the principal give me a five minute mussar speech and accidentally drop a clue that she didn't think was a clue, as to who the complaining parent was... At least the principal called me and apologized a few hours later.)

So unless you are scared of the rebbi, which you hopefully are not, don't skip him and go straight up to the authorities.

Either teach it to your kids properly (everyone makes mistakes...)
Or contact rebbi, because it's wrong for all the other kids as well.

It will be interesting to see what other imas suggest.


I’ve been thinking this may be a solution, since the principal sometimes logs into classes to observe. I can ask him to log in so the correction would come from him as a btw since he happened to hear it. But it’s tricky to know exactly what time they’ll be up to that part, since with young kids, it’s difficult to keep things running punctually.

And I agree - I don’t want to hurt the rebbe by tattling.
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asmileaday




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 11:04 am
As uncomfortable for you as it is to talk to the Rebbe directly it's a thousand times more uncomfortable for the Rebbe if you speak to the principal about it.
My children's cheder once had a chinuch event where they addressed this issue. They explained from a Rebbi's pov why it's much rather to address your complaints to the Rebbe and the compliments to the principal. (Obviously feel free to compliment both but they were trying make a point.)
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m987




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 11:17 am
Is it possible that there is some kind of a difference in nekudos
For example some say in adon Olam- yetzeer nivra and some say yetzoor
Or on borei nefashos some say nihiya bidvaro and some say nihiye
Just a thought
Edited to add I see that what he is saying is not a word but if anyone as curious about examples
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 4:56 pm
m987 wrote:
Is it possible that there is some kind of a difference in nekudos
For example some say in adon Olam- yetzeer nivra and some say yetzoor
Or on borei nefashos some say nihiya bidvaro and some say nihiye
Just a thought
Edited to add I see that what he is saying is not a word but if anyone as curious about examples


What?! Yetzoor? Never heard of that!
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amother




Crimson
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 4:57 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My two young elementary aged sons both pronounce the same word in davening wrong. It’s a simple word in birchas hashachar. I don’t want to use that word here out of privacy, but suppose a word like nishmasi in Modeh Ani, being pronounced nishmisa. It cannot be a different havara, but simply a confusion of nekudos between two syllables in the word.

I always assumed that they got the confusion from other kids in the class.

But now with Zoom learning, I get to hear the class davening. And I heard the rebbe pronouncing it that way.

Would you make the rebbe aware or let it go? Do you think the rebbe would want to know? If so, how would you go about it?

I don’t want to be disrespectful. He’s nearly old enough to be my father and I’m not comfortable correcting him. But he’s teaching young children wrong pronunciation in a basic part of tefillah.


You can ask him nicely, I always thought it was pronounced....?
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amother




Cerulean
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 6:14 pm
Mayflower wrote:
Maybe tell the rebbe you noticed your kids pronounce this word incorrectly, without saying anything about him, and ask if he can help you correct them.

This way you won't criticize the rebbe and he'll either change his pronunciation or explain this is his mesorah.


While this is exacwhat I would do, isn't it passive aggressive and manipulative?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 6:47 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
While this is exacwhat I would do, isn't it passive aggressive and manipulative?


If you in fact didn’t know it was the rebbe teaching it wrong, but your child’s issue, would it be passive aggressive? I don’t think so.
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