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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 7:15 pm


Someone posted this on a different thread, and it gave me a good laugh. I mean the cultish language, the overdramatization, the ability to blame everything you don't like on racism.... beyond parody. But then I thought, "what if people here actually believe this?"


So here's my question: If you are on the left, do you agree with this image? Are there any parts you disagree with?
If you are on the right, are there any parts you do agree with?
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 8:22 pm
The biggest and most glaring problem is that most of the "overt" types of white supremacy involve very specific actions, speech, and symbols. The "covert" types are vague and even contradictory. For example, "white silence" and "self-appointed white ally." So you can be blamed if you keep your mouth shut, and you can be blamed if you speak up.

The "covert" section also makes the assumption that all people of color feel the same -- that they either have the same opinions or feel the same degree of passion about various types of offenses. I'm pretty sure you're not going to offend black Trump supporters with "Make America Great Again!" Black Americans are also some of the strongest voices in English-only advocacy and speaking against illegal immigration. And things like "tone policing" and "respectability politics" are so vague as to be meaningless.

Yet "hiring discrimination" is buried down in the "covert" list -- I guess you don't always know if you weren't hired because of race or some other reason, but I think most people would consider that more problematic than "spiritual bypassing."

Treating every possible offense under the sun as equal to every other offense is counterproductive, and it ultimately makes people take real problems less seriously.
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Mama Bear




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 8:29 pm
It's white supremacy to be afraid of black people?
Seriously?
maybe when they'll stop attacking Jewish kids in broad daylight for no reason we can stop being afraid.
So stupid.
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SuperWify




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:26 pm
Why is “all lives matter” racism? If my life doesn’t matter to you doesn’t that make you racist against Jews? Or whites? Or women?

Seriously 😒

But apparently only BLACK lives matter.
Thanks for knocking us down so we can bring you up.
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giselle




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:39 pm
This is really one of those things where you just can’t win. That’s one of the biggest problems with liberals.
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preciousmommy




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:48 pm
"Calling the Police on Black People" - if a black man is breaking into my house, it's racist to call the police?? I'll call the police no matter what color he is!

And I definitely believe there is such thing as Reverse-Racism. Are you telling me there are no blacks who are racist against whites? Or Jews? Of course there are! Why is racism owned by blacks?
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shyshira




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:53 pm
preciousmommy wrote:
"Calling the Police on Black People" - if a black man is breaking into my house, it's racist to call the police?? I'll call the police no matter what color he is!

And I definitely believe there is such thing as Reverse-Racism. Are you telling me there are no blacks who are racist against whites? Or Jews? Of course there are! Why is racism owned by blacks?


Reverse-Racism is specific to the impact (perceived or actual) to white people of affirmative action programs.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:55 pm
So why were the Bernie campaign signs in neighborhoods that were 92% white, 4% Asian, and 4% black and Hispanic? If you believe in equality, go live in a predominantly black community and send your kids to school there. Otherwise admit that most of the time, other communities are not on your radar and you don't alter your life to include them.
My street is 100% Jewish and I don't pretend to be an example of integration. It's not clear what the black community wants of me and I don't know if I can give them what they want.
I wouldn't march in a protest at the moment because it has been protested for days already but I would stand in solidarity with businesses who were completely destroyed (except that I don't go to public places).
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
So why were the Bernie campaign signs in neighborhoods that were 92% white, 4% Asian, and 4% black and Hispanic? If you believe in equality, go live in a predominantly black community and send your kids to school there. Otherwise admit that most of the time, other communities are not on your radar and you don't alter your life to include them.
My street is 100% Jewish and I don't pretend to be an example of integration. It's not clear what the black community wants of me and I don't know if I can give them what they want.
I wouldn't march in a protest at the moment because it has been protested for days already but I would stand in solidarity with businesses who were completely destroyed (except that I don't go to public places).

The bolded is called gentrification and is considered "racist" as well.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:08 pm
shyshira wrote:
Reverse-Racism is specific to the impact (perceived or actual) to white people of affirmative action programs.


reverse racism[ ri-vurs rey-siz-uh m ]
noun
intolerance or prejudice directed at members of historically dominant racial groups.
Dictionary.com

reverse discrimination
noun
: discrimination against whites or males (as in employment or education)
Merriam Webster

Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism.The concept is often associated with conservative social movements and the belief that social and economic gains by black people in the United States and elsewhere cause disadvantages for white people
Wikipedia

As you can see, Wikipedia has your definition, but it is by no means the only way that word is used. (I also think it's interesting that the Wikipedia definition is clearly biased to the left)
Regardless, I think it's a stupid term whether used by the right or left. Someone who believes that one's race makes one better than someone of another race- or discriminates based on race is a racist, not a "reverse racist". It doesn't matter what the race of the victim is.
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jun 04 2020, 10:44 pm
SuperWify wrote:
Why is “all lives matter” racism?

Because the phrase was used in a racist manner and is now associated with racists. Like the OK symbol.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 1:49 am
chanatron1000 wrote:
Because the phrase was used in a racist manner and is now associated with racists. Like the OK symbol.


It's more than that.

Remember the feelings of fear and anxiety after the Tree of Life murders?
Imagine you have this conversation with your non jewish colleague in the aftermath
"It's so scary. A synagogue is supposed to be a holy place and it's been desecrated. Every time I go I look around, a little fearful, in case there's a crazy anti semite looking to open fire, it's made it like we're being attacked, we're disposable. And jewish lives matter"
Her; "all lives matter"

Can you see how invalidating that would be? How it would be minimizing your fear for your safety? Because she heard, "jewish lives matter, only" but really you were saying "jewish lives matter, too ".

Of course, if you really believe all lives matter, it would be easy to say jewish lives matter, or black lives matter.


With regard to color blindness/ being seen. It's a question of nuance.
When you apply for a job you don't want your jewishness to be seen, you want your qualifications to speak for you.

But, imagine you've been working there a while and have a good rapport with your colleagues. You mention it's a chag, or a value you have, they don't want to talk, or acknowledge, that being jewish is an essential part of your identity. That could invalidate a large of who you are.

It's not a question of d×mned if you do, d×mned if you don't, it's having the sensitivity to recognize both.

(Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering responding, when the original post made it pretty clear that this a joke to people)
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 2:01 am
The words "all lives matter" itself isn't racist, it's the way they are used. People can use it, for example, in the sentence "Black Lives Matter is an important movement because all lives matter".
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 9:16 am
simcha2 wrote:
It's more than that.

Remember the feelings of fear and anxiety after the Tree of Life murders?
Imagine you have this conversation with your non jewish colleague in the aftermath
"It's so scary. A synagogue is supposed to be a holy place and it's been desecrated. Every time I go I look around, a little fearful, in case there's a crazy anti semite looking to open fire, it's made it like we're being attacked, we're disposable. And jewish lives matter"
Her; "all lives matter"

Can you see how invalidating that would be? How it would be minimizing your fear for your safety? Because she heard, "jewish lives matter, only" but really you were saying "jewish lives matter, too ".

Of course, if you really believe all lives matter, it would be easy to say jewish lives matter, or black lives matter.


I would certainly not label someone an anti semite if they said "All lives matter." Would you? So why is it considered OK to label someone a white supremacist?
Imagine you were feeling sad after Tree of Life. Your Christian friend is feeling sad a shooter killed people in a church in Texas. Your Republican friend is feeling sad because some congressmen were shot at a baseball game. Your Muslim friend is feeling sad because people were killed in a mosque in New Zealand. They say "all lives matter". Are they anti-semitic?

I can think of ways the words "black lives matter" can be used that is invalidating and mean. Does that mean that the words are automatically racist?


simcha2 wrote:
With regard to color blindness/ being seen. It's a question of nuance.
When you apply for a job you don't want your jewishness to be seen, you want your qualifications to speak for you.

But, imagine you've been working there a while and have a good rapport with your colleagues. You mention it's a chag, or a value you have, they don't want to talk, or acknowledge, that being jewish is an essential part of your identity. That could invalidate a large of who you are. It's not a question of d×mned if you do, d×mned if you don't, it's having the sensitivity to recognize both.


I have never heard anyone using color blindness in order to not want to talk about someone's culture or holidays. It is used to say "I see you as a person, not the color of your skin." The woke left finds that insulting because they think that if you don't care about race, you automatically wont care about racism. They are entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make color blindness a racist concept.



simcha2 wrote:
(Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering responding, when the original post made it pretty clear that this a joke to people)


Thank you for your response. Your opinion is valuable to me. Yes, the graph made me laugh, but at the same time, it isn't a joke and I think it is vital that we discuss this. I started this thread on the desperate hope that we can find some common ground, but I guess I was wrong.

If you truly think that someone who says "we are all one human family"/ "You are so articulate" / wears dreadlocks and raps/ disagrees with your political position regarding illegal immigration is actually engaging in covert white supremacy, then maybe we can understand why we disagree so much.
If the left thinks we are actual white supremacists, than I can understand why we can never find common ground. Why would you want to find common ground with us? When most people have a conversation with a peer, they try to be open-minded and not interpret things in the worst possible light. But not if you think the other person was an actual White Supremacist! I know I wouldn't.
This explains a lot.
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shyshira




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 9:32 am
sushilover wrote:
Thank you for your response. Your opinion is valuable to me. Yes, the graph made me laugh, but at the same time, it isn't a joke and I think it is vital that we discuss this. I started this thread on the desperate hope that we can find some common ground, but I guess I was wrong.

If you truly think that someone who says "we are all one human family"/ "You are so articulate" / wears dreadlocks and raps/ disagrees with your political position regarding illegal immigration is actually engaging in covert white supremacy, then maybe we can understand why we disagree so much.
If the left thinks we are actual white supremacists, than I can understand why we can never find common ground. Why would you want to find common ground with us? When most people have a conversation with a peer, they try to be open-minded and not interpret things in the worst possible light. But not if you think the other person was an actual White Supremacist! I know I wouldn't be.
This explains a lot.


I don't think you can have a reasonable conversation when you start a thread in the tone you did.

The expression "Covert White Supremacy" I think is meant to be intentionally provocative... and I think the list is a useful starting point for discussion.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 9:47 am
shyshira wrote:
I don't think you can have a reasonable conversation when you start a thread in the tone you did.

The expression "Covert White Supremacy" I think is meant to be intentionally provocative... and I think the list is a useful starting point for discussion.


I simply expressed my feelings honestly. Yes, I think the term "Tone Policing" is ridiculous and cultish and it made me laugh. You are welcome to tell me why I am wrong so that we can discuss each other's viewpoint, or tell me that you agree that it isn't white supremacy so that we can find common ground.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 9:54 am
shyshira wrote:
I don't think you can have a reasonable conversation when you start a thread in the tone you did.

The expression "Covert White Supremacy" I think is meant to be intentionally provocative... and I think the list is a useful starting point for discussion.


I agree, I think the "covert white supremacy" is a huge leap, it may have been better to call it "areas of sensitivity".

Sushilover, what I found most striking about your response to me was the focus on "I". Just because you wouldn't be offended, doesn't mean that someone who has had a lifetime of someone being surprised that they are intelligent, because people are continually prejudging and discounting the possibility of their intelligence, can't be hurt by that surprise.

No, I wouldn't label someone an antisemitic for saying "All lives matter" in the example I gave. I would call them invalidating and insensitive. But if it happened every time, then over time, I might begin to see it, not as an individual's poor response, but as something deeper.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 9:59 am
monkeymamma wrote:
The bolded is called gentrification and is considered "racist" as well.


So basically, if I buy a house in a black neighborhood that is divided into several apartments, and I kick out the tenants and make a single family home out of it, I understand why that's considered racist but if I buy the same type of home that the local residents have, and live like they do, why is that considered racist?
And if a group of concerned citizens were to move some inner city families to predominantly white neighborhoods, what factors will cause them to integrate?
I went to public school and although I had some black friends, usually blacks hung out with blacks, Jews with Jews, etc and apparently that is still the case on campus today.
I would give many black people credit though for being more interested in understanding Judaism than many Jews show an interest in what it's like to be black. I have had black people in Crown Heights ask me what a Succah was or to explain Yom Kippur but I never asked them about being black. One friend who is a black georus, however, spoke to me about it a lot.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 10:09 am
I think it would be a mistake to cherry-pick the dumbest parts of the image - and there are some strange parts - and dismiss the whole thing based on that.

IMHO there are a lot of valid points in there.

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule. There's nothing wrong with focusing on European history in a European history class. There's nothing wrong with arresting and incarcerating people who commit violent crimes. There's nothing wrong with the word "articulate" in and of itself.

But that's sort of the point. Seemingly minor things, each of which could on its own arguably not always be racist, can have a cumulative effect.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 10:10 am
SuperWify wrote:
Why is “all lives matter” racism? If my life doesn’t matter to you doesn’t that make you racist against Jews? Or whites? Or women?

Seriously 😒

But apparently only BLACK lives matter.
Thanks for knocking us down so we can bring you up.


I'm going to assume that this is a serious question, and respond.

Saying that black lives matter isn't saying that all lives don't matter.

After the bombing at the Boston Marathon, people said BOSTON STRONG. No one said what about Topeka.

25,000 people in NYC marched against anti-semitism. We didn't say what about the Sikhs.

When I give money to Meir Panim, I don't say let other kids starve.

The Anti Defamation League's mission is to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all. That doesn't mean that they support defamation of African Americans.

I think you see the point.

Because people are seeing systemic racism against people of color, the chant is Black Lives Matter. Not to the exclusion of others. But to right that wrong.
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