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shyshira




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 2:52 pm
dietcokeaddict wrote:
Only proving my point further. There’s nothing racist about All Lives Matter.


This was what you wrote. I'm arguing that if blacks valued all human life....

So If blacks valued all human life.... they wouldn't be upset with "all lives matter"... they are upset so.... ????
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:10 pm
The older I get, the more convinced I am that many problems are solved (or at least mitigated) by counter-intuitive means.

Getting along in a pluralistic society with different kinds of people is an excellent example.

There was an early #WalkAway video made by a middle-aged black man who said he'd never met a genuinely racist white person, but that he'd met a lot of people who were uncomfortable around black people -- often because they were afraid of saying or doing something that would be offensive.

Like the childless woman who walks into a group and realizes that all conversation has stopped because no one wants to say anything about kids, excessive sensitivity can be just as hurtful as complete lack of sensitivity.

Along with that, there was a small study done a few years ago (I don't have a link, so you can feel free to shlug me up) that GenX managers were often reluctant to hire minority candidates because they were afraid they would inadvertantly do or say something offensive. They were also worried about how it would be perceived if they had to eventually fire the employee. So minority candidates were actually losing out because managers were afraid of being racist!
________________________________________

A few weeks ago, the frum attorney Ron Coleman did an interview with Gavin McInnes. It's behind a paywall at censored.tv, but one of the points he made is that maybe we should stop insisting that everyone like one another and just focus on everyone behaving lawfully and civilly.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

There's also a lot of wisdom in everyone developing a thicker hide. I can't even begin to relate to a lot of the examples posters have given that start with "How would you feel if . . . "

When someone says something insensitive, ignorant, or just plain bigoted, it would never occur to me to be upset.

If it's possible and appropriate, I might try to change the person's view or maybe correct misinformation, but I mostly feel lucky. Why? Because I live in a country that is fairly unique in the course of history. We have myriads of laws that protect members of various groups from actual harm at the hands of people who don't like them. Those laws don't always work, obviously, and even when they work, they work imperfectly. But I look around the world and see a very different picture when it comes to how people treat "others" in their midst.

So when there are specific problems that need to be addressed, such as police brutality or overreach, by all means. And, yes, some problems affect certain groups more than others for various reasons. But treating all problems and annoyances as equal is insane. Your cholent is going to be inedible if you insist on putting in an equal amount of every ingredient: a pound of meat, a pound of potatoes, and a pound of pepper.
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:15 pm
servewithjoy wrote:
So interesting chicken soup because much of that and more has happened with violence and death in Europe and elsewhere against us against Jews anti semitism


True, and you know how freaking hurtful it is, if you hear that someone Jewish died, or a Jewish Restaurant has been destroyed and people really are like ''but what about Israel? What about the Palestinians?'' I'm like dude... can I still go safely to shul? And then from people from right to left ''darn... the jews always need to be the victim whatever'' or ''darn why about the war? It is 80 years ago''. And it goes on. Look I had a secular upbringing but I knew I was Jewish and I told that, my classmates in highshcool had called me out for '' Filthy Jew'' and ''Chickensoupprof needs to be gassed''. When I told that to my total why civilized teacher ''Don't take it seriously it is just a joke'' I make a joke about Germans '' Chickensoup prof, just becasue you are Jewish you can't be racist to German the war is long ago'' It was just an inside joke with my friend.

The same things happen with gay people and other POC. ''Ah just jokes'' and everything I have a friend who did a research paper on antisemitsm, racism and homophobia. It all goes hand in hand... It is toxic..

I'm going to share more after shabbos its now almost shabbos gut shabebes
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:52 pm
dietcokeaddict wrote:
You didn’t answer my question.

A double standard for the most basic of morals (to value every life) is as racist as they come.

Exhibit A for the counter intuitiveness of the let’s-twist-ourselves-into-a-pretzel-so-as-not-to-offend-anyone PC culture.

What double standard? I'm not saying that anyone's life shouldn't be valued, or that anyone shouldn't be valuing people's lives.
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:53 pm
Cheiny wrote:
I’m amazed that you deem yourself knowledgeable enough about me and what I care about, to make such a ridiculous statement. If you didn’t understand the context of my comments about the hypocrisy in their lack of care and calls for change when it come to what’s really killing so many of their own (black on black crime), while coming out in force about police brutality which isn’t anywhere near as common, then I can’t help you.

If you don't understand that the context of your comments makes them come across as racist, I can't help you.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:55 pm
Chickensoupprof wrote:
True, and you know how freaking hurtful it is, if you hear that someone Jewish died, or a Jewish Restaurant has been destroyed and people really are like ''but what about Israel? What about the Palestinians?''

Hurtfulness is a poor metric for social appropriateness. What is hurtful to you might not be hurtful to me, and vice versa. It sets up a system in which no one will ever achieve an adequate level of sensitivity to others.

The biggest problem with most bigoted jokes is not that they are bigoted, but that they simply aren't funny. The best response to most jokes of that nature is a blank look and, "Huh? I don't get it? How is that funny?"

Whether as an individual or a member of a group, one of the most positive things you can do for your mental health is say, "I don't think I'll have my feelings hurt today."
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:04 pm
We all know what's better for another group but we can't fix our own problems. Certain things are reasonable to expect, such as a better trained police force and certain change has to come from within the group. If Jews of color want books about Jews of color, they may have to be the catalyst for producing it but the parents of black children should be able to expect frum schools to accept them.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:21 pm
dietcokeaddict wrote:
This reasoning would work if the BLM movement, and all blacks, proved they truly value life--all life.

Jews have no issue there. We famously oppose euthanasia, we establish our own first-response teams to save as many lives as possible, and we will be mechalel Shabbos to save a life. Consequently, when we say Jewish Lives Matter, there is no insinuation there that [/I]only[I] Jewish lives matter, which might prompt a response of All Lives Matter.

But when many blacks show a consistent disregard for life itself, yes, when they say Black Lives Matter, you can argue that this demands a response of All Lives Matter.


All blacks have to show that they value life?

If I name Jewish murderers -- and there are more than a few -- would you say that Jews don't value life?

You're cherry picking. The vast majority of blacks are not murderers. Moreover, blacks (like Jews) are not a monolithic group.

But you go ahead. Prove that you, personally, value human life. How much did you value George Floyd's life? Enough to protest?
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:30 pm
You know what's amazing to me?

When Ilhan Omar made an antisemitic statement, Congress passed a resolution against antisemitism. However, it added in references to other groups.

The conservatives still aren't over it. How dare they! This is about antisemitism. Jewish lives matter; leave out the rest of those folks, even if they are also discriminated against and marginalized. This should be about the Jews, and the Jews alone.

Now, African Americans are making the same argument, and the conservatives are apoplectic. How DARE they limit it to just blacks. All of us matter. Even if we're not suffering the same sorts of discrimination.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:33 pm
dietcokeaddict wrote:
Only proving my point further. There’s nothing racist about All Lives Matter.


All lives matter in response to BLM is offensive in the same way that telling a Jewish person that holocaust was a long time ago or wasn’t really so bad. It’s invalidating.

And @Fox, there are jokes and there are jokes. I’ve joked around with coworkers about enjoying a good deal, but what chickensoup said she was told about getting gassed...that’s no joke, that’s hate speech.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:43 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
If you don't understand that the context of your comments makes them come across as racist, I can't help you.


Only to racist mind.
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 4:44 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Only to racist mind.

I'm rubber, you're glue.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 5:43 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
All lives matter in response to BLM is offensive in the same way that telling a Jewish person that holocaust was a long time ago or wasn’t really so bad. It’s invalidating.

And @Fox, there are jokes and there are jokes. I’ve joked around with coworkers about enjoying a good deal, but what chickensoup said she was told about getting gassed...that’s no joke, that’s hate speech.


I can understand the pain and frustration that led to the formation of BLM and I realize that blacks get the worst schools, health care, police, etc; I get it. But from what it appears that they are demanding, I can't give them. I do what's good for me. They probably feel that Monsey belongs to the Ramapo tribe of Native Americans and we should give it back to them. When Israel gave Gush Katif to the Arabs, they first demolished it but I get the feeling that BLM wants the Ramapo tribe to get the whole thing, lock, stock and barrel.
Obviously any group that is pro Palestinian, is not a group that I can support, even those positions that are valid. My name is Southernbubby and I am a racist.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:45 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
All lives matter in response to BLM is offensive in the same way that telling a Jewish person that holocaust was a long time ago or wasn’t really so bad. It’s invalidating.

And @Fox, there are jokes and there are jokes. I’ve joked around with coworkers about enjoying a good deal, but what chickensoup said she was told about getting gassed...that’s no joke, that’s hate speech.

Right. That was my point. It wasn't a joke; it was just obnoxious and gross.

But I don't believe in the concept of "hate speech." If someone wishes violence on you, that's plenty inappropriate in and of itself, whether they add any elements based on your group identity or not. "I wanna punch you in the nose because I hate you" isn't substantively different from "I wanna punch you in the nose because I hate people with red hair."

Nor do I believe that I need to be validated by coworkers, neighbors, and randos on the Internet. If I'm in a position to educate people, I do so. If not, I carry on and thank Hashem that they have no real power over my life.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 12:08 am
simcha2 wrote:
I agree, I think the "covert white supremacy" is a huge leap, it may have been better to call it "areas of sensitivity".

Glad to find common ground! I'm honestly relieved.

simcha2 wrote:
Sushilover, what I found most striking about your response to me was the focus on "I". Just because you wouldn't be offended, doesn't mean that someone who has had a lifetime of someone being surprised that they are intelligent, because people are continually prejudging and discounting the possibility of their intelligence, can't be hurt by that surprise.

No, I wouldn't label someone an antisemitic for saying "All lives matter" in the example I gave. I would call them invalidating and insensitive. But if it happened every time, then over time, I might begin to see it, not as an individual's poor response, but as something deeper.


Of course there are comments that can be said in a hurtful way and will affect different people differently depending on their experiences. Even a perfectly benign comment can be hurtful when you hear it over and over again.
The bottom line is we live in a world when there will always be people who have different opinions and life experiences. There are two rules for disagreeing and still maintaining your humanity:
1) Be a mentch
2) Don't assume negative motive when a perfectly benign one can be assumed.

If you says "All lives matter" in order to invalidate my pain, you are a bad person.
If I always assume that every person saying "all lives matter" MUST be doing it to cause pain, I am a bad person too.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 12:21 am
SixOfWands wrote:
You know what's amazing to me?

When Ilhan Omar made an antisemitic statement, Congress passed a resolution against antisemitism. However, it added in references to other groups.

The conservatives still aren't over it. How dare they! This is about antisemitism. Jewish lives matter; leave out the rest of those folks, even if they are also discriminated against and marginalized. This should be about the Jews, and the Jews alone.

Now, African Americans are making the same argument, and the conservatives are apoplectic. How DARE they limit it to just blacks. All of us matter. Even if we're not suffering the same sorts of discrimination.


Ahem. The issue most of us had with that "condemnation" of Ilhan Omar was because they refused to mention her by name, and instead focused largely on white supremacy. The fact that they felt they had to fill the resolution with references to other groups was not the main problem.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 12:31 am
dietcokeaddict wrote:
Someone on another thread posted an analogy that works perfectly here, if you revise the scenario to actually fit the reality.

If you were at the dinner table with your family and everyone got a portion except for you, you can say "I deserve to get my share."

If your dad responds, "We ALL deserve our share," he is minimizing your completely valid point.

BUT, if you first went and removed everyone else's portions from the table and then said, "I deserve to get my share," it would be perfectly reasonable for your dad to respond, "We ALL deserve our share."


Nice analogy, except it would be more accurate if there were many people who didn't get a portion. You said, "People with blonde hair deserve a share".
Your dad, noticing that actually several people of different hair colors have all not received their portion says "We ALL deserve our share."
You say, "that's so invalidating. I guess you hate blond people."
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 1:03 am
Fox wrote:
Right. That was my point. It wasn't a joke; it was just obnoxious and gross.

But I don't believe in the concept of "hate speech." If someone wishes violence on you, that's plenty inappropriate in and of itself, whether they add any elements based on your group identity or not. "I wanna punch you in the nose because I hate you" isn't substantively different from "I wanna punch you in the nose because I hate people with red hair."

Nor do I believe that I need to be validated by coworkers, neighbors, and randos on the Internet. If I'm in a position to educate people, I do so. If not, I carry on and thank Hashem that they have no real power over my life.


Well, you certainly have a stiff upper lip, I guess! And randos on the internet are known for saying the most awful things. But I assumed that she meant someone told her in person she should be gassed (for being Jewish). That is just so far over the line; that’s a threat that needs to be reported. But this is OT anyway.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 1:06 am
sushilover wrote:
Nice analogy, except it would be more accurate if there were many people who didn't get a portion. You said, "People with blonde hair deserve a share".
Your dad, noticing that actually several people of different hair colors have all not received their portion says "We ALL deserve our share."
You say, "that's so invalidating. I guess you hate blond people."


Except, historically, in that family, blondes have not gotten their fair share. Or so they feel; you disagree.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 07 2020, 1:25 am
dancingqueen wrote:
Except, historically, in that family, blondes have not gotten their fair share. Or so they feel; you disagree.

I do not disagree. I disagree with the premise that they are not getting their fair share currently.
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