Can someone please help me understand

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Lakewood, Toms River & Jackson related Inquiries

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amother

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:05 am

This bothered me for a while. I am curious if there are others that struggle with this? How do you deal with the struggle?

I am pretty open minded, my husband learned in kollel for a few years and then went to work.During the years I always kept up with the normal standard of tznious. I dress very classy,in style and as the years went on my husband and I have become more balabatish in many areas.However I did not change my dress to much, as I still live on a block with yeshivash crowd. I started seeing over the years young couples moving into the basements and the ladies have really long sheitels they are not so serious about there tznious, to put it nicely.I do not judge and I have no problem with it as I probably would dress like that myself if not for the block. What really bothers me is were is the respect of the neighbors? They really dress very very attractive in a neighborhood that families have spent a lot of money to run away from! Now if you are going to say....there will always be the problem for the men..they go to stores etc... I still believe that there should be a level of respect to the neighbors.
Its been bothering me for a while but during covid it really bothered me as a lot of men and women were out at the same time and I have noticed a lot of glaring(I am not sure I blame them for glaring).

Please let me know your thoughts.

.

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:18 am

Lakewood used to be a yeshiva-centered community. Now it's a satellite of Brooklyn. That's all.

amother

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:24 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Lakewood used to be a yeshiva-centered community. Now it's a satellite of Brooklyn. That's all.

I understand that I agree but if your neighborhood is still on a certain standard shouldn't you respect that?

amother

Brown

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:25 am

You sound like my mom.
I keep telling her they pay rent and taxes the same way all the neighbors do, and therefore deserve to live their life the same way the others deserve to live theirs.
(She says your comment regarding a neighbor that holds hands with her husband while walking, which isn't accepted in our community.)
I, on the other hand, don't want to deal with stares and glares, and therefore succumb to community pressure. (I don't let my 4 year old wear pants when visiting the neighbors, or going with daddy to shul.) But I'm glad they don't.

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 12:47 pm

So the yeshivish people on the block are renting their basements to people whose standards they are not comfortable with?

Ora in town

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 12:49 pm

yeridat ha dorot...

Ora in town

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 12:51 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I understand that I agree but if your neighborhood is still on a certain standard shouldn't you respect that?

But what's really your complaint?
That you don't do it, although you would like to? And invest all those efforts? Just for other people to nix them in their way?

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 1:05 pm

You don’t have to rent out your basement to a couple you don’t think others would feel comfortable having on the block...

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 1:06 pm

Sometimes people just need the rental income so they rent to who ever they can find regardless of tznius standards.
Also keep in mind you usually see this couple once before marriage.. sans wig and maybe on that day she was dressed more modestly...

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 1:15 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I understand that I agree but if your neighborhood is still on a certain standard shouldn't you respect that?

No. Everyone pays rent and is entitled to be there. There’s no demanding certain levels. We live in America.

silverlining3

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 6:38 pm

I understand and agree with you. But if these yeshivish landlords don't care and don't do their research on whom they take as a tenant, It's really their fault. Many people today's days live their own lives and don't think about others too much. I know plenty chassidish landlords who are very choosey with who they take as tenants.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's very hard, and it seems you can't escape it. We see it not just tznius but in smartphones and with so many community norms that erode away. We can only live by example.

DrMom

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 10:08 pm

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

You don’t have to rent out your basement to a couple you don’t think others would feel comfortable having on the block...

I don't think this is true, legally, although it's probably difficult to enforce if the potential renters are not from a legally protected group.

Rappel

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 10:19 pm

The way I see it:

If you live in the middle of a city, where you don't set all the rules, then you can't complain if someone comes around who doesn't follow your standards.

If you live way out in the middle of nowhere, on your own land, and control the standards of your enclave community, then you can complain if someone comes out of their way to enter your little bubble.

amother

Smokey

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:10 am

Those of you saying that this is America, you don’t set the rules etc are unfortunately misguided. This is a Torah concept, not to bring down the standard in a neighborhood, not to be a trendsetter etc and Torah is what sets our rules. Unless that’s out of fashion too?

DrMom

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:16 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

I never heard of "not bringing down the standard of the neighborhood" as a mitzvah. But I could be mistaken.

I have heard of Dina d'malkhuta though.

amother

Smokey

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:30 am

DrMom wrote:

I never heard of "not bringing down the standard of the neighborhood" as a mitzvah. But I could be mistaken.

I have heard of Dina d'malkhuta though.

Dina kmalchusa is laws of a country. We need to observe them- not to bring our level down to everything that’s allowed. Bringing down a neighborhood standard would probably fall under tznius, respect for holiness in an area, encouraging others to sin etc. although I’m pretty sure it’s delineated somewhere but I’m not learned enough to know where. There are pretty clear parameters of tznius which many unfortunately choose not to follow.

I find this so discouraging - people are more willing to respect their non-jewish neighbors than their frum ones. Every will have their own din vecheshbon to answer to but I find this so sad.

little neshamala

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:49 am

OP I get that its hard for you, but (paraphrasing from something I once heard my Rav say) you'll be better off training yourself to think of them as people who are just like you, and may be on a higher level than you, but just dont dress the way you do. Your shortcomings may not appear as obvious as their dress, and their commitment to certain mitzvos may be something you dont see.
Just look at them as people who are just like you, focus on your similarities, and you'll live a better life.

amother

Puce

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:06 am

Op, the neighborhood changed. It's not as frum as it once was and that's just the way it is. Surely the neighborhood will look different again in 25 years from now. What area looks the same as it did 20 years ago? Why is that your expectation?

amother

Smokey

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:10 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

In addition there is minhag hamakom- if it’s normal to not cover legs below a knee in one place, that may be fine. If that’s not the norm you may not do it. This is torah. Not do your own thing wherever you are because that’s your “level”

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