S/o vegetarians and pets and other related thoughts

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 1:19 pm

Quote:

Hosting and dietary restrictions - how much do you accomodate?

I used to accomodate a lot... and now I feel a bit stupid for doing it...

I had a regular guest who was vegetarian (no fish) and could not eat raw vegetables and could not eat Monosodiumglutamate, and was lactose intolerant and from time to time something else popped up...

my regular friday evening routine is to toss chicken, potatoes (or rice), and all the vegetables in a roman clay pot, leave it in the oven, and serve as a main course...

So this guest would not eat fish from the first course, nor the raw veggie salads, of course, none of the veggies for the main course out of the clay pot, because it was cooked with meat, and no salads...

So I went to extreme lengths: I started making soups... pure veggie soups... I cooked eggs as a first course instead of the fish (or matze kneydel with egg in the soup), I made sure there was some chumus or pulses on the menue, I cooked the rice separately instead of tossing it in the clay pot, I cooked veggies separately, I needed a plata for Friday evening, I didn't just serve fruit salad for dessert, but cooked compotes or crumbles (which I had to finish before it was time to put the clay pot on the oven, then keep it on the plata)..

And in the end, the guest got a dog and fed the dog meat...

So I really felt stupid...

Because if the guest is not consequent enough in their vegetarianism not to own a carnivorous pet, I don't think I need to accomodate them...

so now, when a significant number of people around the table are vegetarian, I plan a parve/milchig menu (with fish) from the start...

But I'm done with vegans and the like...

As far as allergies and the like go: I would not provide gluten-free challa to someone who has a gluten allergy, but I would make sure not to use gluten unecessarily in other courses (except cake)... I once, not at my home, had to serve someone with a gluten allergy who insisted eating gluten-free bread for breakfast... In my home, I would not accomodate that... I'd tell them to look for an alternative (joghurt with fruits)

And then I have a fussy mother-in-law who will criticise everything that is not to her liking, especially in Shabbat and Yomtov meals... Well, in general I try to anticipate the criticism and provide everything she will say she needs... but this also makes me nervous... and sometimes I just say "no" or "help yourself"...

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:06 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Quote:

Hosting and dietary restrictions - how much do you accomodate?

and what happened to your regular guest?

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:10 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

and what happened to your regular guest?

STopped being a regular guest, for reasons other than that... perhaps because of the dog (because the dog took priority over coming on Friday evening, even though I accepted the dog in my house, even for seder, and the dog even did what it needed to do on my persian rug...
I still made a veggie soup along with the chicken soup, specially for dog-owning, multi-allergic vegetarian, but I was reluctant to do it, because of the inconsequence of being a vegetarian and owning a dog...

I think if this person is not ready to bear the onus of their convictions, why should I bear it and accomodate them'

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:11 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

STopped being a regular guest, for reasons other than that... perhaps because of the dog (because the dog took priority over coming on Friday evening, even though I accepted the dog in my house, even for seder, and the dog even did what it needed to do on my persian rug...
I still made a veggie soup along with the chicken soup, specially for dog-owning, multi-allergic vegetarian, but I was reluctant to do it, because of the dog... and since then I tried to invite a few times...

OMG

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:15 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

what? I suspect you've imputed what his/her convictions are.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:19 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

what? I suspect you've imputed what his/her convictions are.

If they are vegetarian - why do they hold a carnivorous pet...
Their conviction is that one should not kill animals to eat them...
So why will they feed meat to their pet?

If they are ready to kill animals to feed their pet - why would I go out of my way to accomodate the fact that they do not want to eat "killed animals"?

In the end, I found it was pure decandence... specially when they told me they specially bought sausages destined for humans to feed the dog... and that they fed the dog matza...which apparently was the dog's "favorite dish"...

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:21 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Is that what the person told you?

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:30 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Yes...
and they were half vegan, would not use leather and things... but eat eggs and drink milk (lactose-free, because of lactose intolerance)..

Now that I'm telling the story I realise just how crazy they drove me...

I'm not a vegetarian - but I see no conflict with a vegetarian owning a pet and feeding the pet meat.

regardless - not all guests are good matches for hosts. Good that you've moved on.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 4:45 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Dogs are carnivores. It is very difficult for them to live on a vegetarian diet.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 5:21 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I'm not a vegetarian - but I see no conflict with a vegetarian owning a pet and feeding the pet meat.

regardless - not all guests are good matches for hosts. Good that you've moved on.

Their philosophy lacks stringency.
And if they are vegetarians out of a philosophy that lacks stringency, I don't see why I should go out of my way to adapt to their warped thinking... while they themselves do not really make efforts to be stringent in their reasoning...

By the way, I find that a remarkable number of vegans and vegetarians hold carnivorous pets.

I can't take their veganism or vegetarianism seriously...
They can do what they like on their on cheshbon... but not on mine...
And as I described above, I went out of my way to accomodate this vegetarian, who also could/did not eat raw fruits or vegetables, needed lactose free milk... and held a dog...

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 6:19 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I didn't find your description of what you did for accommodations "going to extreme lengths" - IMHO there is some self-rightousness going on here for both host and guest... its good you've both moved on.

Everyone has their limits. I don't analyze my guests - everyone has their idiosyncrasies.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 6:29 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

it's just like OP says: if you have one dietary requirement - like. you don't eat meat or fish - OK...

But when it combines with others, that makes it really complicated.

In this case, the person did not eat meat or fish for "philosophical" reasons, and could not eat raw vegetables for health reasons, and was allergic to MSG (monosodiumglutamat), and needed lactose-free milk... andsometimes other things popped up - like no tomatoes at all, because of the acidity, etc.

So if it was just about the meat and the fish - I would serve the potatoes and veggies I cooked with the chicken... but this was not possible, for philosophical reasons...

So I would serve salads - not possible - raw veggies are taboo...

OK. So you cook the rice and veggies apart from the chicken. Since before, everything used to be to gether in the oven, you need extra space on the shabbes plata, or even specially a plata for Mrs. Vegetarian...

I spent hours in the kitchen cooking veggies, compotes, eggs, chumus, kneydlach so that vegetarian should not leave my table hungry.

I wrecked my brain to arrange my menues in a way that there would be enough for this vegetarian.

And then it turns out that the whole philosophical bit was not that important, after all, because for dogs it's allowed to kill animals? Just not for humans?

I felt this guest just ridiculed me.
I felt all the efforts I made to accomodate them were pure stupidity on my part, because they themselves so easily lifted their philosophical restrictions when they wanted to have a dog...

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 7:10 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

it's just like OP says: if you have one dietary requirement - like. you don't eat meat or fish - OK...

But when it combines with others, that makes it really complicated.

In this case, the person did not eat meat or fish for "philosophical" reasons, and could not eat raw vegetables for health reasons, and was allergic to MSG (monosodiumglutamat), and needed lactose-free milk... andsometimes other things popped up - like no tomatoes at all, because of the acidity, etc.

So if it was just about the meat and the fish - I would serve the potatoes and veggies I cooked with the chicken... but this was not possible, for philosophical reasons...

So I would serve salads - not possible - raw veggies are taboo...

OK. So you cook the rice and veggies apart from the chicken. Since before, everything used to be to gether in the oven, you need extra space on the shabbes plata, or even specially a plata for Mr. Vegetarian...

I spent hours in the kitchen cooking veggies, compotes, eggs, chumus, kneydlach so that vegetarian should not leave my table hungry.

I wrecked my brain to arrange my menues in a way that there would be enough for this vegetarian.

And then it turns out that the whole philosophical bit was not that important, after all, because for dogs it's allowed to kill animals? Just not for humans?

I felt this guest just ridiculed me.
I felt all the efforts I made to accomodate them were pure stupidity on my part, because they themselves so easily lifted their philosophical restrictions when they wanted to have a dog...

Given that you disagreed with them philosophically to begin with - why did you accommodate them?

They didn't start eating meat when they got a dog. I don't see the conflict that you see....

give yourself a break.. you weren't being stupid, and you weren't being ridiculed.

if accommodating a guest takes 'hours' - they aren't a good match.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 7:19 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Why not?
Aren't you tolerant enough to invite guests who do not exactly share your ideas?

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 7:35 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Why not?
Aren't you tolerant enough to invite guests who do not exactly share your ideas?

I absolutely have guests who do not exactly share my ideas. Its not tolerance - if I was 'tolerating' people they probably wouldn't be at my table, unless there was a really good reason for it.

With these guests - nothing changed except they bought a dog. You lost your tolerance for them because they bought a dog.. you were philosophically opposed to their vegetarian lifestyle the whole time.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:38 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I am not philosophically opposed to their lifestyle. it's a free country, they can live the way they like.

The fact that they bought a dog showed me that I was twisting myself into a pretzel to accomodate their philosophical dietary needs (in addition to their health dietary needs, which I accepted because people are not responsable for their health issues), and that they did not do anything to respect their own philosophical needs, since they were ready to buy meat (and even meat for human consumption) to feed their dog...

So I decided to stop twisting myself. I.e. I decided to stop making extra dishes just because of them. e.g. making a vegetable soup in addition to the chicken soup I happened to serve at this dinner, so that they would not feel excluded when soup was served.

The fact that they stopped coming was not my choice... They just stopped accepting my invitations... and then I stopped asking... now with Covid it's moot anyway, because they think they are at risk and would not accept invitations generally...

So my short answer to OP's question is:

I regret accomodating this very complicated vegetarian, so she should not be mad at her sister in law for not accomodating her.

Being a vegetarian is her life choice, she should bear the onus.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:43 am

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

I'm a happy pesco-vegetarian, and have been for more than twenty years. Meaning I'm never fleishig. (The "pesco" prefix means I eat fish.) That's the way I describe myself to people who invite me for a meal. Then I always add the company is more important to me than the meal, and please don't make anything special.

Ninety-nine percent of the time, there's a green salad or something else I'll eat. I always have hard-boiled eggs in my refrigerator so that I can come home and eat one if I think I need the protein.

In today's world, there's at least four, and I've seen up to twelve, definitions of types of vegetarians. If a vegetarian doesn't define in the first phone call what s/he will not eat, you shouldn't drive yourself crazy or feel guilty about planning your menu.

Btw, the reason I tell people "I'm never fleishig" is because I think that's a succinct way of phrasing it. I'm still surprised at the number of people who assumed chicken soup would be fine.

What's the reason why chicken soup or potatoes/veggies boiled with the chicken are not fine?
What's the reason why OP cannot "eat around the chicken in the salad"?