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S/o vegetarians and pets and other related thoughts
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:55 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Just confirming what I expressed many times:
it's all on me.
I was stupid to try and accomodate. I'm an idiot!


but it has nothing to do with the discovery that your guest bought a dog.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:07 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
but it has nothing to do with the discovery that your guest bought a dog.

It's a bit along the lines of what watergirl wrote...

But you are right: in retrospect: good thing we both moved on...

This thread just allowed me to see a bit clearer how demanding she was and how much I jumped through hoops to accomodate her...

The thing is that hosting is a kind of dialogue, and I am happy when my guests are happy... and unhappy when they stay hungry...

So I suppose the dog is more of a rationale for me, to discover she was too demanding in general, and to find a good reason for me not to accomodate any more, although "it's too much" should have been enough...

Actually, I know someone without a dog I would not invite because of his meshiggaasen... a raw vegan... he really drives people crazy, and I felt very sorry for the host when he was invited...

Sometimes it's also a question of combination: a vegetarian might be fine when you can do milchig anyway... but when there are diverging interests at stake - some absolutely want meat, others are vegetarian, it's more complicated...
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:15 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
It's a bit along the lines of what watergirl wrote...

But you are right: in retrospect: good thing we both moved on...

This thread just allowed me to see a bit clearer how demanding she was and how much I jumped through hoops to accomodate her...

The thing is that hosting is a kind of dialogue, and I am happy when my guests are happy... and unhappy when they stay hungry...

So I suppose the dog is more of a rationale for me, to discover she was too demanding in general, and to find a good reason for me not to accomodate any more, although "it's too much" should have been enough...

Actually, I know someone without a dog I would not invite for his meshiggaasen... a raw vegan... he really drives people crazy, and I felt very sorry for the host when he was invited...


Yes to the bolded. Everyone a limit (but with some organization - its easier to accommodate special diets, if you want to).

Did you also get clarity on why vegetarians won't eat food cooks or prepared with meat?

(not sure how this thread made it clearer for you how demanding she was, it was what you started with).
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:22 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Yes to the bolded. Everyone a limit (but with some organization - its easier to accommodate special diets, if you want to).

Did you also get clarity on why vegetarians won't eat food cooks or prepared with meat?

(not sure how this thread made it clearer for you how demanding she was, it was what you started with).

Especiall the fact that you accused me because I don't have enough pots to accomodate special whishes ("that's on you"), and not enough place on my plata and no pre-cooked veggie soup in the freezer brought it home to me how stupid it was even to start accomodating...

It brought home that when you try to do something well, to the best of your ability, investing some effort, chances are that others will not even appreciate it... and think you are an idiot... for the effort you invested...
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:27 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Especiall the fact that you accused me because I don't have enough pots to accomodate special whishes ("that's on you"), and not enough place on my plata and no pre-cooked veggie soup in the freezer brought it home to me how stupid it was even to start accomodating...

It brought home that when you try to do something well, to the best of your ability, investing some effort, chances are that others will not even appreciate it... and think you are an idiot... for the effort you invested...


The bolded doesn't reference the demands of the guest.

you seem legit baffled that a vegetarian wouldn't eat chicken soup.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:51 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
The bolded doesn't reference the demands of the guest.

What really brought home that she was being hypocrite on my cheshbon was when she told me that she would go to the sausage stand with her dog (once a week), the best sausage stand in town, of course, buy a sausage for $$$$ and feed it to her dog. While she was a strict vegetarian. And would not have one ounce of a veggie cooked with a chicken...

That's when I understood that there is no reason for me to accomodate her meshigaas...

The clarity that came with this thread is that I saw the huge discrepancy between what she said and what she did, between her way of judging others and how she would hold up if I applied her criteria to herself...

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
you seem legit baffled that a vegetarian wouldn't eat chicken soup.


Just like there are "pescovegetarians", there are many vegetarians who do not eat meat, but do not bother where there veggies were cooked...

That was mainstream vegetarianism a few decades ago...

The first vegetarians I heard complain about this kind of stuff were those who had a concept of fleishig and milchig, and applied their concept of fleishig to their concept of vegetarianism.

I agree that meanwhile, specially the vegans have become quite thorough in avoiding even things that touched meat (while having no problem feeding meat to their pets)...

But it used not to be like this...
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:56 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Just like there are "pescovegetarians", there are many vegetarians who do not eat meat, but do not bother where there veggies were cooked...

That was mainstream vegetarianism a few decades ago...

The first vegetarians I heard complain about this kind of stuff were those who had a concept of fleishig and milchig, and applied their concept of fleishig to their concept of vegetarianism.

I agree that meanwhile, specially the vegans have become quite thorough in avoiding even things that touched meat (while having no problem feeding meat to their pets)...

But it used not to be like this...


Live in the now.

Perhaps your circles have changed?
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:59 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Live in the now.

Perhaps your circles have changed?

I just want to tell you that it is not outlandish to think that vegetarians would eat veggies cooked with a chicken or eat around the chicken in a salad...

That used to be the norm...

By the way, in the past "vegetarian" mainly meant what is now "pescovegetarian"...


Last edited by amother on Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:59 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
mother [ cornflower ] wrote:
The bolded doesn't reference the demands of the guest.

What really brought home that she was being hypocrite on my cheshbon was when she told me that she would go to the sausage stand with her dog (once a week), the best sausage stand in town, of course, buy a sausage for $$$$ and feed it to her dog.

That's when I understood that there is no reason for me to accomodate her meshigaas...

The clarity that came with this thread is that I saw the huge discrepancy between what she said and what she did, between her way of judging others and how she would hold up if I applied her criteria to herself....


okay.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:02 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
I just want to tell you that it is not outlandish to think that vegetarians would eat veggies cooked with a chicken or eat around the chicken in a salad...

That used to be the norm...

By the way, in the past "vegetarian" mainly meant what is now "pescovegetarian"...


its outlandish that they should because you think so.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:03 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Just like there are "pescovegetarians", there are many vegetarians who do not eat meat, but do not bother where there veggies were cooked...

That was mainstream vegetarianism a few decades ago...

The first vegetarians I heard complain about this kind of stuff were those who had a concept of fleishig and milchig, and applied their concept of fleishig to their concept of vegetarianism.

I agree that meanwhile, specially the vegans have become quite thorough in avoiding even things that touched meat (while having no problem feeding meat to their pets)...

But it used not to be like this...

You are amother obviously so I have no frame of reference about who you are based on your other posts on the board; I have no idea what kinds of people you were exposed to. But I am a BT, I was around in the 80s, and I DO know quite a few vegetarians who are either not frum or not Jewish who will not eat "fleishig vegetables", for lack of a better term. Even ovolactovegetarians (who will not eat fish or meat/poultry but DO eat milk/dairy/eggs/honey) or pescatarians I know will not eat vegetables that have been cooked with meat. Have you ever seen the show "Hell's Kitchen" or "Kitchen Nightmares"? Gordon Ramsey looses his cool, to say the least, when he finds that a vegetarian dish has even a trace of animal bi-product, such as broth or gelatin, etc. and would NEVER tolerate vegetables which have been cooked in a meat broth to be called "vegetarian".

It is not a new thing, but it may be new to you.

Just for funsies, I googled and found this list of types of vegetarians. I learned something new!
https://vegetarian-nation.com/.....rian/
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:07 am
watergirl wrote:
You are amother obviously so I have no frame of reference about who you are based on your other posts on the board; I have no idea what kinds of people you were exposed to. But I am a BT, I was around in the 80s, and I DO know quite a few vegetarians who are either not frum or not Jewish who will not eat "fleishig vegetables", for lack of a better term. Even ovolactovegetarians (who will not eat fish or meat/poultry but DO eat milk/dairy/eggs/honey) or pescatarians I know will not eat vegetables that have been cooked with meat. Have you ever seen the show "Hell's Kitchen" or "Kitchen Nightmares"? Gordon Ramsey looses his cool, to say the least, when he finds that a vegetarian dish has even a trace of animal bi-product, such as broth or gelatin, etc. and would NEVER tolerate vegetables which have been cooked in a meat broth to be called "vegetarian".

It is not a new thing, but it may be new to you.

Just for funsies, I googled and found this list of types of vegetarians. I learned something new!
https://vegetarian-nation.com/.....rian/


Yes, that was after he had a scandal in his restaurants when he himself did it.

I.e. he did it, he tried to sell "vegetarian" (or vegan) food with fleishig components in his restaurant, he was caught, it was a huge scandal, and from this he learned... and then acted as if he himself had never done it...

When was hell''s kitchen?

That's what I'm talking about. it evolved a lot since the 80ies, but there are still vegetarians around who don't care...
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:12 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Yes, that was after he had a scandal in his restaurants when he himself did it.

I.e. he did it, he tried to sell "vegetarian" (or vegan) food with fleishig components in his restaurant, he was caught, it was a huge scandal, and from this he learned... and then acted as if he himself had never done it...

When was hell''s kitchen?

That's what I'm talking about. it evolved a lot since the 80ies, but there are still vegetarians around who don't care...


I don't know what you are talking about with the scandal, but I will google later. I love a good scandal.

Do you remember about 19 years ago, there was this whole lawsuit with McDonalds over their french fries? They claimed they were vegetarian until some Muslims and vegans sent the fries to a lab and discovered the potatos were literally injected with beef fat. Thats what made them so good!

Hell's Kitchen is another Gordon Ramsay show, its been on for years and years.

I would say that if its true that vegetarianism has evolved, that should be ok and respected. Kashrus has also evolved; just take a look at the vast number of hechsherim and at how many people wont eat other hechshers. Light tables for checking lettuce was NEVER a thing on the scale it is today. Just like I am sure there were always people who always checked their berries and lettuce or never touched it in the first place, I am equally sure there were always this kind of strict vegetarian.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:15 am
Op, what if it was your best friend?

I dont think you know that some people are vegeterian for health reasons, others because the way they treat the animals in large food productions, not because you shouldnt kill/eat animsls. In fact the third reason is kofer b'ikkur and a big no no judaism-ly.

Dogs were made to be carnivores and cannot be healthiest without. Humans do not need meat, our bodies were designed if functioning optimally to not need it.

I think you over extending yourself in the past and came to resent it and now you over correct. Most guests wouldn't expect you to start dealing with unusual foods and complicated recipes. Its not a big deal to put out some standard dips, salads & kugels for them. If you like them enough to invite them in the first place & want to socialize with them.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 9:04 am
watergirl wrote:
I don't know what you are talking about with the scandal, but I will google later. I love a good scandal.

Do you remember about 19 years ago, there was this whole lawsuit with McDonalds over their french fries? They claimed they were vegetarian until some Muslims and vegans sent the fries to a lab and discovered the potatos were literally injected with beef fat. Thats what made them so good!

Hell's Kitchen is another Gordon Ramsay show, its been on for years and years.

I would say that if its true that vegetarianism has evolved, that should be ok and respected. Kashrus has also evolved; just take a look at the vast number of hechsherim and at how many people wont eat other hechshers. Light tables for checking lettuce was NEVER a thing on the scale it is today. Just like I am sure there were always people who always checked their berries and lettuce or never touched it in the first place, I am equally sure there were always this kind of strict vegetarian.


It’s funny you bring that up- my dad actually worked on the French fry case as outside counsel (they settled). That was my last year of high school and it was his main case for the year. So McDonald’s beef flavoring paid for my college. I wasn’t a vegetarian back then though so don’t call me a hypocrite 😀
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 9:10 am
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
It’s funny you bring that up- my dad actually worked on the French fry case as outside counsel (they settled). That was my last year of high school and it was his main case for the year. So McDonald’s beef flavoring paid for my college. I wasn’t a vegetarian back then though so don’t call me a hypocrite 😀

HA! I remember a rabbi(!!) who was my boss at the time, and worked in kashrus telling me it was ok to have their fries because they are so uber strict about the fries because they were so afraid of lawsuits! They supposedly even had rules which required them to have a dedicated fryer for the fries so they were not fried in the same oil as the McNuggets. And then this came out. It was one of the best "I told you so" experiences.

At that point in my life I was already frum but I remember those fries. Man... those were good!
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 9:24 am
watergirl wrote:
HA! I remember a rabbi(!!) who was my boss at the time, and worked in kashrus telling me it was ok to have their fries because they are so uber strict about the fries because they were so afraid of lawsuits! They supposedly even had rules which required them to have a dedicated fryer for the fries so they were not fried in the same oil as the McNuggets. And then this came out. It was one of the best "I told you so" experiences.

At that point in my life I was already frum but I remember those fries. Man... those were good!


Yes the plaintiffs were Hindus, vegetarians, and “kosher” Jews. The settlement money went to charities representing each of these groups. I remember a lot of people thinking that the lawsuit was frivolous because such people shouldn’t be going into a Macdonald’s in the first place. McDonald’s defended themselves by saying that they never called the fries vegetarian, just said that they were fried in 100% vegetable oil. I still think they should have seen it coming!

PS in Israel you can still have those fries!
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:04 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Op, what if it was your best friend?

I dont think you know that some people are vegeterian for health reasons, others because the way they treat the animals in large food productions, not because you shouldnt kill/eat animsls. In fact the third reason is kofer b'ikkur and a big no no judaism-ly.


Just want to point out that you just referred to Rav Kook as a kofer so.... What

My MIL is a vegetarian and owns a dog. She only feeds the dog fish-based dogfood. The dog's breath stinks so bad but at least she's consistent in her ideals!

She is also GF under doctor's orders. It's pretty annoying but I accommodate because it's family.
I once had a friend who said she was GF. I had made a lasagna and made a separate potato/veggie meat pie for her. She ate both. So I won't bother with that next time.

But my DH Is also a vegetarian, and I am not. We agreed no red meat but chicken ok to buy and serve. When we have company and I make chicken I usually limit that to being the only animal I serve. Soups, appetizers, sides, etc are all pareve. Even though I am not vegetarian, being married to one has made me more conscious about the impact buying meat has on the earth, on the workers, and on health. And I try to limit the amount of animal protein I consume in general because it feels better ethically (to me) to not have so many different types of dead animal flesh at your meal. It feels unnecessary.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:06 pm
Also OP, your guest sounds incredibly annoying, beyond the vegetarian thing. If someone gave that list of demands I'd say "I'll try to figure something out but you should probably bring a dish you would feel comfortable eating."

One of my close friends stopped eating onion or garlic and can't even eat it as an ingredient in something. She ALWAYS brings a dish she can eat, and enough for the whole table
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amother
Silver


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:35 pm
princessleah wrote:
Just want to point out that you just referred to Rav Kook as a kofer so.... What



Please explain/expand, I want to learn/know. He said you shouldn't kill animals to eat because its wrong to? The torah gives very specific how to's.
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