Do you think that beief in evolution negates the ikkarim?

Ora in town

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 8:56 am

Do you think that any person accepting the findings of contemporary science about the solar system, the early history of earth, the genesis of plants, animals and humans is a kofer, negates basic principle of judaism?

bigsis144

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:04 am

You know my opinion! 😄

Using our G-d given intellect to examine the world around us, current scientific theories regarding evolution, plate tectonics, age of the universe, etc. are as close to truth as we can get in a scientific manner.

I find it easier to believe that Bereishis’s account of creation is allegorical, and HaShem is not tricking us with contradictory physical evidence. I don’t see why this would affect my halachic practice or belief in HaShem.

I am willing to change my mind as new evidence comes to light and new theories develop - that is the heart of the scientific method. But as things stand, any “scientific proof” of a Young Earth is mere apologetics, or purely philosophical.

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:08 am

I thought the Big Bang theory is more accepted than evolution? That no "missing links" were ever found?

(Leaving aside contradictions to the Ikarim, I'm of the belief that Hashem created a world that looks old, and scientific investigation on the matter simply indicates the style in which that world appears to have aged.)

behappy2

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:11 am

It depends. I believe in evolution, there is no creator; or I believe in evolution and the same God that took us out of Mitzrayim created the world, gave us the Torah.

That said I am no Rabbi or scientist.

And from the little I know there are a lot of holes in evolution, at least parts of it.

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:28 am

Another point:

I don't think that the word "belief" and "evolution" belong in the same sentence.

Either you understand it to be the truth, or you don't. You don't "believe in" gravity. You understand that the force of gravity acts upon objects, pulling them towards the earth.

If your understanding leads you to conclude that the world's creation was in a manner of evolution, then, assuming that you don't disbelieve the Sheishes Yemei Bereishis, I don't see a conflict with Torah.

But belief means something ABOVE understanding, and if you think that evolution falls into that category, then yes you're on shaky religious ground, because you are then giving room for that belief to override belief in Torah.

Ora in town

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:34 am

behappy2 wrote:

The idea is:
G-d created the world in the way science describes it:

Strong expansion of the universe 13,8 billion years ago.

Earth spins around its own axis, that makes day and night.
Sun at the center of the solar system.
Earth goes round the sun in 1 year.

Earth is about 4,5 billion years old
First life on earth, microbes, about 3,8 billion years ago
Through photosynthesis microbes enrich oceans and atmosphere in oxygene.
First bigger forms of life around 800 million years ago.
First significant mammal population around 65 million years ago

Different forms of humans and humanoids existed, some went extinct, like Neanderthal or Denissovan

Homo sapiens came up a few hunderetousand years ago in Africa. We are homo sapiens.

Next closed existing relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos...

Would thinking that all this is true, in your view, be kefira, negate the ikkarim of jewish faith?

Last edited by Ora in town on Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Coral

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:38 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Another point:

I don't think that the word "belief" and "evolution" belong in the same sentence.

Either you understand it to be the truth, or you don't. You don't "believe in" gravity. You understand that the force of gravity acts upon objects, pulling them towards the earth.

If your understand leads you to conclude that the world's creation was in a manner of evolution, then, assuming that you don't disbelieve the Sheishes Yemei Bereishis, I don't see a conflict with Torah.

But belief means something ABOVE understanding, and if you think that evolution falls into that category, then yes you're on shaky religious ground, because you are then giving room for that belief to override belief in Torah.

'truth' is also a odd word to use when describing forces. Maybe accurate?

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:41 am

I believe the question would be, how do you reconcile the above narrative with the 6 days of Creation described in Bereishis.

If there is a conflict, and you choose the evolution theory over the Torah's account, you have a problem.

If you do not see a conflict, then you may have an unusual way of understanding the Torah, but are not in denial of the 13 Ikarim.

Ora in town

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:42 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

We actually learned this in halacha class. We're you being sarcastic or is this real?

If it was about lice - lice reproduce by laying eggs, nits, and then come out of the nits.
But I am happy it is not forbidden to kill a louse on shabbat, because spontanoeous generation was assumed to be true.

If you are referring to anisakis, they have a complex reproductive cycle
anisakis reproduction cycle
But I am happy they are not considered sheretz when found in fish, because it was assumed they generated from the fish's flesh...

Last edited by Ora in town on Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total

malki2

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 9:56 am

Ora in town wrote:

The idea is:
G-d created the world in the way science describes it:

Strong expansion of the universe 13,8 million years ago.

Earth spins around its own axis, that makes day and night.
Sun at the center of the solar system.
Earth goes round the sun in 1 year.

Earth is about 4,5 billion years old
First life on earth, microbes, about 3,8 billion years ago
Through photosynthesis microbes enrich oceans and atmosphere in oxygene.
First bigger forms of life around 800 million years ago.
First significant mammal population around 65 million years ago

Different forms of humans and humanoids existed, some went extinct, like Neanderthal or Denissovan

Homo sapiens came up a few hunderetousand years ago in Africa. We are homo sapiens.

Next closed existing relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos...

Would thinking that all this is true, in your view, be kefira, negate the ikkarim of jewish faith?

I don’t know if it technically can be called outright kefira, as it does not negate any particular Ikkar. (It does negate the Gemara that said that all of Maaseh Bereishis I.e. all plants and animals was created in its fully devolved form.) But belief in Evolution definitely can be called outright foolishness.

malki2

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:04 am

Ora in town wrote:

These are your interpretations, but they are not necessarily accurate. Anyone who has checked for lice has found bits on the hair, so it’s a little superficial to say that Chazal did not know of the existence of nits. While some do explain as you did, there is another explanation, that the Torah’s understanding of parasites can be is that if they can’t live off of the host, such as with lice, they do not have their own existence and are not classified as being alive. With regards to the fish worms, if they are born in the fish, then they are part of the fish.

amother

Coral

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:05 am

malki2 wrote:

probably not what you meant.

In final form?

malki2

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:07 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Are we supposed to believe that all the evidence is just a Divine prank?

If you read up on the subject of evolution, it’s not “all the evidence”. It sounds like you were taught evolution and you took your teachers’ word for everything.

Success10

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:09 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Why an unusual way of seeing the Torah? Why not an unusual way of seeing evolution? Why is the Torah the one that has to compromise here? Torah predates Darwin by several millenia. Torah doesn't owe anyone an explanation.

Last edited by Success10 on Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

Teomima

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:09 am

Years ago DH and I went to hear Gerald Schroeder speak about this very subject. He had an amazing way of explaining how both beliefs go hands in hand, that neither science nor G-d negate one another. It was truly eye opening. He's published quite a bit on the subject, if anyone is interested in reading about it.

malki2

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 10:13 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

probably not what you meant.

In final form?

It means that, as the Gemara says, that the first ox did not come out as a formless shape and then got shaped into an ox. It emerged from the ground in its entirety, head-first.