What do parenting experts do about preteen chutzpah?

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 6:28 am

Let's break this down into stages.

1. Walk away. If the tantrum continues, then go to the next step.
2. Engage with empathy, and try to deescalate the confrontation.
3. Wait for the child to calm down.
4. Explain why that behavior was wrong.
5. Get together with the child and try creative problem solving.

For step 5, I highly recommend "Parenting Teens with Love and Logic". This book was the turning point in my relationship with my preteen daughter, and she LOVED how she felt included and respected.

Basically, you sit down together in a calm moment, and name the trigger that caused the outburst. Then you say "How can WE make things better in the home, so that WE can both be happy? Do you have any ideas that will work for BOTH of us?"

Always emphasize that this is a team effort, and you want the child to help you brainstorm solutions. Never use "me" and "you" statements, as that sets up a dividing line and causes defensiveness. You'd be surprised at how intelligent and wise your child can be, once they feel like you are really taking them seriously.

It's an amazing book, please go get it now!

sequoia

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 6:36 am

bigsis144 wrote:

It’s so easy to say “this kind of language/behavior will not be tolerated”! 😂

My son has had anger issues for a very long time, and we tried punishments, “natural consequences”, more punishments... all this did was strain our relationship and make every interaction a power struggle.

My son literally said, “in our battle, you have all the weapons because you can punish me and take things away and I can’t do anything!!” and then started taking out his rage on his baby sister and physically hitting and punching me.

We had to get out of that punitive cycle. We are still taking baby steps in the right direction, this doesn’t happen overnight or with one magical talk.

But the relationship is the most important thing.

It’s no laughing matter if he hits and punches his wife and baby daughter as an adult.

I’m not suggesting if he does, it’s your fault chas v’shalom. Just questioning the idea that “the relationship” (I.e. being liked by a violent abuser, even if he is your kid) is always the most important thing.

behappy2

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:09 am

sequoia wrote:

It is always the most important thing. If you have no relationship you can't teach them not to hit, kick etc...

It's easy to judge when you don't have a kid like this.

I actually know an adult that was raised in a very mechunach household. Very well mannered kid. Kids were put into place for bad behavior etc..this adult is a controlling, manipulative person and an abuser. No, not with his hands, but with his actions. I doubt anyone ever connected with him, taught him empathy and how to have relationships.

Last edited by behappy2 on Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total

bigsis144

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:11 am

sequoia wrote:

FranticFrummie stated my approach above well.

I’ve told my therapist “if an adult treated me the way my son has, I’d just walk away and never come back” but that’s just it - he’s not an adult yet, and he needs a parent’s love and help dealing with emotions that are too big for him to handle.

He has sobbed with self-loathing after shattering a wooden door jamb because he’s scared of his own strength and rage, but doesn’t know how to deal with his frustration.

But it hasn’t worked for me to meet him head-on by screaming or punishing in the moment. I used to escalate the encounter by trying to be bigger and louder than him, locking him in his room, etc. but that didn’t work, and calling in my husband to “tan his hide” or whatever will only enforce the notion that “might makes right”.

“In the moment” I remove myself and the baby to somewhere safe.
I/DH talk to my son hours later when he is calm. We try to problem solve and get to the root of the issue, being empathetic while still stating our needs and expectations.

Like I said, it’s slow going.

I try to model appropriate behavior as much as possible - removing myself from a power struggle to cool down is a behavior I’d be happy if he copied!

(I’m working on a model of parental authority that is innate, rather than enforced, if that makes sense? And I’m in therapy to help me feel confident about taking care of myself and not allowing myself to turn into a shmatte. It has been my default to ignore my needs in favor of taking care of everyone else, to assume that I’m wrong and only other people are justified in their feelings and actions. I’m workin’ on it and definitely getting better!)

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total

sequoia

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:14 am

behappy2 wrote:

It is always the most important thing. If you have no relationship you can't teach them not to hit, kick etc...

It's easy to judge when you don't have a kid like this.

I’m not judging. I just think the safety of women and girls is paramount. Full stop.

If a strong teen boy is truly a danger to his mother, or *a baby* (!), then someone else needs to take over. A woman never deserves to be hit, not by her husband and not by her son. What kind of “teaching” can there be to someone who is raising a hand to you?

keym

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:26 am

sequoia wrote:

Just commenting that I think bigsis mentioned the child is 6-8.
That makes a huge difference.

So much time for baby steps to work on anger management, frustration and problem solving.

bigsis144

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 7:31 am

keym wrote:

Just commenting that I think bigsis mentioned the child is 6-8.
That makes a huge difference.

So much time for baby steps to work on anger management, frustration and problem solving.

No, my son is 10 1/2, similar age to OP’s child. I’m under 5’4” and he’ll be taller than me by bar mitzvah, I’m sure.

(I also have a 7 year old with behavioral issues that I’ve talked about, but not on this particular post)

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 8:04 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Does he need meds? It seems like you are all suffering.

Zehava

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 8:16 am

sequoia wrote:

If a strong teen boy was truly a danger to my family, I would have to very sadly have him live somewhere else until he can be treated and stabilized.
That said, in a situation like that there’d be so much more to the story. Either mental or psychological illness, or a serious, traumatic rupture in the parent-child relationship.
I deal with difficult teens, both girls and boys, and occasionally had to put my own, and my young children’s well-being first. Never close to actual physical danger though. I can’t imagine the pain of a parent in a situation like that.

amother

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 9:27 am

Thanks so much ladies for all your wise insight. It is good to know that other moms also have these things happening with their preteens.
We have NOT my gotten to a situation where I am scared for my physical wellbeing baruch Hashem. Maybe a push or a hit once in a while when he is really angry, but nothing that was dangerous or super intense. He is more destructive- as in kicking a wall and making a hole, pulling off a seat cushion etc, throwing a toy. And of course calling me names and talking about how horrible mother I am. He says " Don't you even care about your children?!" "Your a horrible mother."

One question for those saying "have discussions" when things are calm. My son refuses to engage in these discussions. And no, they are not lectures. I leave things open ended and talk about my own struggles when I'm frusturated. But this preteen refuses to engage. He makes fun saying things like: ok, okay, leave me alone, I know, I know, I don't want to talk about it" he looks ashamed and I know he just wants to be seen as an adult. He will absolutely refuse to try breathing exercises or visualizations.
He makes fun of this whenever I do this kind of stuff.

Any insight?

Very smart, capable, social and well liked child when with friends. No behavior issues in school

behappy2

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 9:29 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Mine too.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 9:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It sounds like his personal needs for nurturing are not being met. Some kids are more sensitive or just need more than the average child. If he wont talk ask him if he would write a list for you of everything that bothers him. He may be less embarressed that way than talking.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 9:55 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

This strikes me as bad advice. An 11 yr old who loses it obviously can't calm down, or he wouldn't have blown up. And getting the other parent to interfere means you have no authority.

First validate. His brain isn't capable of regulation with all those hormones. Remember he's not capable of calming down unless you teach him how.

"You sound really upset. You really wanted to go to that party, huh. I won't let you disrespect me by calling me that. I'm here when you're ready to discuss things. In the meantime you can go blow off steam doing hoops and ill call you in for dinner. I'll clear time later to sit down with you."

"Are you calling me an idiot bc you don't like that I said you can't go to that party? I hear you, it feels like your social life will end. I still wont change my mind. Its my job to take care of you.

I love you, even when you call me bad names, and nothing you ever say will me stop loving you. You got pretty heated up. I still won't let you call me by disrespectful names. Can you rephrase your frustration? How about, mom, I hate that you're making me feel left out and I wish you could step back and let me be like everyone else. Is that about right?let's discuss it."

Read Dan Siegels books

I dont know if I agree with dan siegels methods, never read them.
From what you wrote, I do not agree with his method, he is combining 2 effective methods in a way that I find ineffective.

When a kid whines. Screams, tantrums that is the best method, to empathise....etc like you wrote above, it is the absolute best way to handle. When a kid has chutzpah and name calls the parent I feel you go all stop until the kids tries to do it again the right way (without name calling/ character assasination).

But it is very effective in the long run if at the end of the day dh (good guy now) pulls kid aside and says "I heard how you spoke to ima today, you cannot do that. I understand that you felt very ...... , but it is still never okay, you must communicate respectfully". It is just more reinforcement that both parents stand on the same page that children need to speak respectfully to the other parent.
You handled it already on the spot, dh is just reinforcing the expectations to this child.

saw50st8

Fri, Jun 19 2020, 1:21 pm

Have you read The Explosive Child? I highly recommend it. I also recommend not taking advice from parents who haven't dealt with kids like that. You can see that from many posters on this thread.

These are kids. They aren't adults. They need to be helped now and not abandoned for the safety of others. There are very few cases where kids really need to be rehomed and it is very important that your child not feel like you are going to abandon them.

There is very little that you can do in the moment, other than making sure everyone is safe. The most important thing to do, is look at the triggers.

It is very hard to engage a child after the fact and really figure out what is going on. Ross Greene (Explosive Child) recommends starting a conversation saying "I see you had trouble with XYZ. What's up?"

I think that you can let go of the expectation of your child speaking nicely to you. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things. They already know that their language is unacceptable. They are obviously struggling with something else.