Want to make Aliyah but scared

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 8:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I know that living in settlements over the green line would be much cheaper. But I can't live there, mostly because my husband wouldn't want to live there and safety issues. I would love to get out of a city, but my husband is American and it's not enough I want to take him to a different country, I don't want to also take him to a small settlement that is far away from places.

So I have to do some more research about the communities. I understand the center is expensive. So maybe somewhere not far away from the center? It is really hard to find the perfect place, of course. My main concern is the schools, I really need good schools for my kids. One has an anxiety disorder, the other just gets speech and SETSS at school. I know in Israel the classes are even bigger, that's going to be another thing for them to get used to. The kid with the anxiety issue needs a lot of attention and it will be difficult with larger classes.

My DH is the same. He wasn't thrilled with the prospect of aliyah but he flat out refused to live over the "Green Line".

I told him the chance of being in a car accident is greater than the chance of being in a terror attack, and that terror is all over Israel, but it's not just the terror that he was nervous about, he didn't want to be forced to uproot his entire life because the government decided to accept a claim of ownership by some lobby group for an Arab who doesn't even know about the claim or care about the land, when the claim is probably not even true. With that, I couldn't argue.

Sooo we don't live in yosh. But we do live in Israel. And I feel you, I really do.... Marriage is all about mutual respect and compromise, so it is what it is.

And I just want to note that there are small towns in the north and south of Israel, so it's not just a choice between big cities and a yishuv.

banana123

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:00 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, my mom doesn't care where, as long as I move to Israel of course.
I'm not sure what she's really thinking, I see how she asks my sister and her husband sometimes to drive her to cities just to buy somethings. She doesn't ask them to come over on holidays because they're not as observant. But we are, and I know she feels the most "comfortable" with me.

I like being independant and not being close to her, but NY and Israel is very far away and I understand why she dislikes taking the long trip here once in awhile.

She can dislike it as much as she wants. You need to do what's good for you and your family. Period.

amother

Azure

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:22 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Rappel, are there Anglos in Itamar or is it mostly Israeli? Would a single mom with one 4 year old child feel welcome there? Asking for myself LOL

I don't know what the situation is like in Itamar, but I know of several yishuvim which don't accept single mothers because they basically are a household which can't contribute to shmira / guarding duty of the settlement. Unfair, but it's pretty widespread.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:33 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

That's usually just an excuse. Would they accept a single mom with a teen son who can help? Or a divorced dad with no children?

The truth is many places just don't want divorced people because it doesn't fit their version of a 'normative' Torani community. They can't do anything about people who divorce after moving there, but they can refuse those already divorced.

I don't know if Itamar is like this, but many yeshuvim are.

amother

Azure

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:36 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I agree with you overall. However a teen son is of no help because he obviously can't do shmira since he's pre-army training.

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:39 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I don't think it's about a "normative Torani community" and I also don't think it's about not being able to contribute to shmira. I think it's a) divorced parents are more likely to need ongoing support from the community (while married parents, if they fit the other criteria like income etc., are likely to only need during unexpected and short-term crises); b) the more divorced people a person knows the more likely they are to divorce; I.e. accepting divorcees normalizes divorce and encourages less work on the marriage and more thoughts of divorce.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:42 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

I agree with you overall. However a teen son is of no help because he obviously can't do shmira since he's pre-army training.

So they wouldn't accept a married couple where the husband never was in the army? Let's say, they are olim from America? The man has no training.
Or a married couple where the man can't hold a gun for whatever reason? Bad eyesight, say?
I think they would accept them. They just want married families, that's all.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 9:46 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Yes on both counts. They are worried a divorced family will need support, and they are worried divorce will be contagious and ruin their utopia.

Bottom line is most yeshuvim don't accept divorced families. I think these selection committees are a farce and should be illegal. Why should some group get a plot of land and then get to weed out whoever they deem undesirable? Why is a divorcee less worthy of living in a yeshuv than anybody else?

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:00 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

No training can be fixed. Disabilities are on the list of things illegal to discriminate for.
But regardless, yes, they want married families.
Be fair, though - there are married couples who are perfectly normal and who still don't get accepted by a given yishuv's vaada. Each yishuv wants to preserve its own value system, that's their right.

amother

cornflower

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:02 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

They are only legal for yishuvim with a certain number of families. And if a group of people decide to devote their lives to founding a yishuv and ensuring that it prospers, I think it's fair that they get to choose who joins them, at least until the yishuv is big enough that the yishuv has its own character and is not dependent solely on the founding families to create the atmosphere. When a place is small each family has a huge influence on the character of the town.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:18 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Yes, it's their legal right. I think it's really problematic though.

Also, IMO this artificially created 'perfect' society does nothing to help imbue the values to the next generation. I've been here decades, and am very close to many families, both from yeshuvim all over the country and from the cities.

The children who grew up in yeshuvim are no more 'perfect' than those who grew up in the city. No less prone to problems like dropping out of school or alcohol abuse or even drug abuse (yes, in many yeshuvim some of the younger generation smokes weed). No less prone to divorce when they start up their own families.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:21 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

The problem is that the country doesn't let just anyone start up their own yeshuv with their own ideology. There is a lot of politics involved. It's not a fair, equal, come-one-come-all system.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:26 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

So it's illegal for them to discriminate against the disabled, but legal for them to discriminate against the divorced?

The whole system is one of discrimination. And yes, I know they can turn away married couples too for the stupidest reasons, if they fear you won't conform.

To be fair, though, there are a few accepting yeshuvim that pretty much accept everyone who keeps Shabbat, so you get some heterogeneity there.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:38 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Of course they would. We live in a yishuv with many anglo olim from all over. Many have not ever held a gun or been in the army.
They, and israelis who have gone through the army, can pay a security fee instead of doing guard duty.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:41 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Exactly. So one doesn't need to be able to do guard duty, one can pay a security fee instead.

In other words, it's not an excuse not to accept single mothers.
Shabbat- does your yeshuv accept divorced people?

And I wonder if there is a difference between divorced and widowed. Are there yeshuvim that will accept one and not the other?

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:46 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Im literally sitting here trying to think if the divorced families in my yishuv were divorced before they moved in or not. Ill have to get bsck to you. I cant remember Smile

Rappel

Tue, Jun 30 2020, 12:17 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Rappel, are there Anglos in Itamar or is it mostly Israeli? Would a single mom with one 4 year old child feel welcome there? Asking for myself LOL

Didn't finish reading the whole thread, but just from the few posts I saw:

Yes, Itamar accepts singles. The criteria I listed above are really what they look for - shomer Torah umitzvot, sane, and breathing. That's all I can see.

It is mostly Israeli, and Israeli culture. There are basically two kehillot in Itamar: the older, survivor-pioneers whom stayed in Itamar throughout the rough years, and the young, idealistic group whom live here because it's a nice place to live. I definitely fall into the second category, but I learn a lot from the first. I have a lot of respect for the community here - the overall feeling is that of simple people whom connect to the Torah and the land. In the future, it may become a "fancy" yishuv (or at least that's what Amana is pushing it to be), but it doesn't have that feeling now.

There is a small, core group of Anglos here. Some are from the survivor years, and they are survivor personalities, not very social. But there are a few other Anglo moms of young kids - 5 of us have a WhatsApp group together, and there are other moms whom grew up in Israel but also speak English from home. It's rare that I need a friend and no one is available.

What's the culture like here? Most men and women work (though the Anglo households are mostly SAHMs, funnily enough). There is a fine balance between Itamar's Torani culture, and the fact that it accepts non-religious children of Itamar, and that is being hammered out now. A lot of people here work in chinuch, in one form or another. A few are lawyers/hi-tech. Some are farmers and builders. Randomly, there are a lot of cosmeticians and artists among the ladies, and at least two architects.

The kids are done with supper. To be continued...