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Grief, do we ever stop mourning?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 10:11 pm
I thought I already came to a point of acceptance after the 5 stages of grief, however without warning, the grief resurfaced and washed over me as if it happened today.

All the questions I thought we’re already answered are suddenly back with a gigantic question mark at the end.
I’m back to square one. WHY?? Why Hashem did you hit me so hard? Aren’t you a loving father? They say You love us unconditionally, You only want and do what’s best for us. But I ask with tears streaming down my face: What type of love is this? Do loving parents hit their kids, slash their hearts with a knife and leave them there gushing blood and reeling in pain? Woe is to any child to get such love. So no. Love is not the answer here. It must be something else.
It must all be my fault. I’m a horrible person if I deserved such pain. It must be my sins. I tried being a good daughter to You, my Father, all my life but unfortunately there were times that I fell into the yetzer hora’s trap. I certainly sinned. Some very big sins. And that must be why I deserve this grief.
So where do I go from here? The guilt is of no help. I’m just wallowing in pain and guilt and can’t get up. The connection I had with Hashem is completely severed. I can’t daven to a father who punished me this badly. I lost all connection, have no interest in any mitzvos I used to do so joyfully. My life is now a facade. I did not change on the outside, but inside I’m spiritually dead.
Some say that the answer is that we don’t see the full picture. When Moshiach comes or after 120, we won’t have questions anymore because everything will be so clear. Now that’s very logical. My mind accepts that. The only problem with this is that I’m human, I have a heart as well. And my heart is in pain and as long as I’ll live I’ll be hurting.
So I have no answer, I guess I’ll continue mourning till Moshiach comes! Crying
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 10:22 pm
Grief does not mean knowing the answer.

It rather means accepting that we might never know the answer.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. Cant be easy.
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 10:29 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I thought I already came to a point of acceptance after the 5 stages of grief, however without warning, the grief resurfaced and washed over me as if it happened today.

All the questions I thought we’re already answered are suddenly back with a gigantic question mark at the end.
I’m back to square one. WHY?? Why Hashem did you hit me so hard? Aren’t you a loving father? They say You love us unconditionally, You only want and do what’s best for us. But I ask with tears streaming down my face: What type of love is this? Do loving parents hit their kids, slash their hearts with a knife and leave them there gushing blood and reeling in pain? Woe is to any child to get such love. So no. Love is not the answer here. It must be something else.
It must all be my fault. I’m a horrible person if I deserved such pain. It must be my sins. I tried being a good daughter to You, my Father, all my life but unfortunately there were times that I fell into the yetzer hora’s trap. I certainly sinned. Some very big sins. And that must be why I deserve this grief.
So where do I go from here? The guilt is of no help. I’m just wallowing in pain and guilt and can’t get up. The connection I had with Hashem is completely severed. I can’t daven to a father who punished me this badly. I lost all connection, have no interest in any mitzvos I used to do so joyfully. My life is now a facade. I did not change on the outside, but inside I’m spiritually dead.
Some say that the answer is that we don’t see the full picture. When Moshiach comes or after 120, we won’t have questions anymore because everything will be so clear. Now that’s very logical. My mind accepts that. The only problem with this is that I’m human, I have a heart as well. And my heart is in pain and as long as I’ll live I’ll be hurting.
So I have no answer, I guess I’ll continue mourning till Moshiach comes! Crying

Contrary to what some may think, grief is not a few linear stages that you go through in a specific order and then come to the stage of acceptance and the grief is gone. You can actually cycle between the different stages at various times in your life. So sorry for your loss.. I hope you can find comfort and peace of mind.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 10:31 pm
A therapist once told me that grief isn’t linear as is commonly assumed, we can keep visiting different stages and parts in different orders at different times in our lives. Even once we reach acceptance, we can still move back to another stage...I found that extremely insightful.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 11:20 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I thought I already came to a point of acceptance after the 5 stages of grief, however without warning, the grief resurfaced and washed over me as if it happened today.

All the questions I thought we’re already answered are suddenly back with a gigantic question mark at the end.
I’m back to square one. WHY?? Why Hashem did you hit me so hard? Aren’t you a loving father? They say You love us unconditionally, You only want and do what’s best for us. But I ask with tears streaming down my face: What type of love is this? Do loving parents hit their kids, slash their hearts with a knife and leave them there gushing blood and reeling in pain? Woe is to any child to get such love. So no. Love is not the answer here. It must be something else.
It must all be my fault. I’m a horrible person if I deserved such pain. It must be my sins. I tried being a good daughter to You, my Father, all my life but unfortunately there were times that I fell into the yetzer hora’s trap. I certainly sinned. Some very big sins. And that must be why I deserve this grief.
So where do I go from here? The guilt is of no help. I’m just wallowing in pain and guilt and can’t get up. The connection I had with Hashem is completely severed. I can’t daven to a father who punished me this badly. I lost all connection, have no interest in any mitzvos I used to do so joyfully. My life is now a facade. I did not change on the outside, but inside I’m spiritually dead.
Some say that the answer is that we don’t see the full picture. When Moshiach comes or after 120, we won’t have questions anymore because everything will be so clear. Now that’s very logical. My mind accepts that. The only problem with this is that I’m human, I have a heart as well. And my heart is in pain and as long as I’ll live I’ll be hurting.
So I have no answer, I guess I’ll continue mourning till Moshiach comes! Crying


Pain is not punishment, it’s a test. It means you have a very high neshama and Hashem knows what you need to make your neshama reach heights you’re capable of reaching, to grow closer to Him and earn tremendous olam haba, please don’t give up, read some deep books on emunah. There are people who go through pains like aleinu we can’t even fathom and they come through it stronger and closer to Hashem. People went through a Holocaust and lost their whole families but stayed with faith and got through it and rebuilt their lives. Please get a good support system, a therapist, a rabbi to talk to and most of all get good books and tapes on emunah. You will feel like a new person and will lean how to better cope.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 11:31 pm
I don’t have answers for you but know you’re not alone. I could have written every word. Some questions we don’t have the answers for.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 11:38 pm
You have complex PTSD. Read up on it, later, once you get out of this Emotional flashback.
Here’s what I want to tell you for now.
It’s not your fault
You are good
You did not deserve this. You deserved a healthy, loving childhood.
You matter
You deserve good in your life
It’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to be angry. It’s okay to cry. Matter of fact all of your feelings are okay.
Here’s what you need to do
Realize that this is an emotional flashback to a different time.
Cry it out. It’s healthy. Releases all of that toxic shame you’ve been holding onto.
Once you’re done crying, take a deep breath and remind yourself that you are no longer a child, no longer helpless.
Hold your inner child close and give her everything you needed as a child.
There are really more steps I can give them to you if it helps
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RuralIma




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 20 2020, 11:46 pm
I don't think grief ever completely goes away, it just gets lighter and easier to live with as time goes on. Some days feel impossible like it's happening all over again and other days it's like a bruise that doesn't hurt unless it gets poked.
I'm so sorry for what you're going through right now.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 12:07 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
Pain is not punishment, it’s a test. It means you have a very high neshama and Hashem knows what you need to make your neshama reach heights you’re capable of reaching, to grow closer to Him and earn tremendous olam haba, please don’t give up, read some deep books on emunah. There are people who go through pains like aleinu we can’t even fathom and they come through it stronger and closer to Hashem. People went through a Holocaust and lost their whole families but stayed with faith and got through it and rebuilt their lives. Please get a good support system, a therapist, a rabbi to talk to and most of all get good books and tapes on emunah. You will feel like a new person and will lean how to better cope.

I didn’t want to make my op longer than it already was but I think about those special people that accept the pain all the time. And my grandparents who survived the holocaust with their emuna intact. I’m so jealous of these people. I’m so not on that level. I probably should get a good book or 2. Talking to a rabbi or therapist is not up my alley. Thanks for your suggestions.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 12:12 am
Zehava wrote:
You have complex PTSD. Read up on it, later, once you get out of this Emotional flashback.
Here’s what I want to tell you for now.
It’s not your fault
You are good
You did not deserve this. You deserved a healthy, loving childhood.
You matter
You deserve good in your life
It’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to be angry. It’s okay to cry. Matter of fact all of your feelings are okay.
Here’s what you need to do
Realize that this is an emotional flashback to a different time.
Cry it out. It’s healthy. Releases all of that toxic shame you’ve been holding onto.
Once you’re done crying, take a deep breath and remind yourself that you are no longer a child, no longer helpless.
Hold your inner child close and give her everything you needed as a child.
There are really more steps I can give them to you if it helps

Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, this has nothing to do with my childhood. Thank God I had a healthy one. I’ve been dealt a heavy blow recently. I wonder if it’s complex ptsd. I’ll read up on it.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 12:12 am
I appreciate all replies, they made me feel better! Thank you.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 12:22 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, this has nothing to do with my childhood. Thank God I had a healthy one. I’ve been dealt a heavy blow recently. I wonder if it’s complex ptsd. I’ll read up on it.


My mother passed away now during Corona. It was cruel how she was whisked away to the hospital and we didnt see or talk to her for 10 days before she was brought back in a bag.

She was young, vibrant and in the midst of things. It felt so unfair.

I thought I'll never recover. I thought I'll never ever accept this.

Its been 10 weeks. I still cry here and there but the acute pain isn't there anymore.

I came to my father the first month post Shiva and everything felt so bereft.

It's the second month and it's still horrible. The void is surreal but not to compare to the severity of the feeling in the first month.

People still stop me on the streets and we talk about my mother and we cry but things are not as severely painful as they were.

I write a lot. I can't say I'm accepting it. I'm just getting better at being ok with the sadness and the void.

I hope things get better for you.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 12:28 am
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
My mother passed away now during Corona. It was cruel how she was whisked away to the hospital and we didnt see or talk to her for 10 days before she was brought back in a bag.

She was young, vibrant and in the midst of things. It felt so unfair.

I thought I'll never recover. I thought I'll never ever accept this.

Its been 10 weeks. I still cry here and there but the acute pain isn't there anymore.

I came to my father the first month post Shiva and everything felt so bereft.

It's the second month and it's still horrible. The void is surreal but not to compare to the severity of the feeling in the first month.

People still stop me on the streets and we talk about my mother and we cry but things are not as severely painful as they were.

I write a lot. I can't say I'm accepting it. I'm just getting better at being ok with the sadness and the void.

I hope things get better for you.

I’m so sorry for your loss!
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 2:28 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, this has nothing to do with my childhood. Thank God I had a healthy one. I’ve been dealt a heavy blow recently. I wonder if it’s complex ptsd. I’ll read up on it.

Sorry my bad. I thought you were talking about your parents hurting you. I misunderstood.
If it was a one time thing it may be regular PTSD or just good old grief. Either way, lots of hugs.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 2:32 am
Zehava wrote:
Sorry my bad. I thought you were talking about your parents hurting you. I misunderstood.
If it was a one time thing it may be regular PTSD or just good old grief. Either way, lots of hugs.

Was referring to our Father in heaven. Thanks again.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 3:38 am
Grief is complicated. There's never a point when it's completely over. Even acceptance just means accepting that it happened, with occasional, random extreme sadness.

Questioning and anger is also a kind of connection with Hashem. Maybe the usual davening isn't what you need right now, or isn't all that you need. Have you tried a 'conversation' with Hashem where you say what you said here?

Not that there's any easy answer to questions of emuna, but for what it's worth, here's my take - if you're talking about losing another person (including pregnancy loss), a big part of the answer is that it's not about anything you did, or really, about you at all. It's about the person who died, and what their neshama needed. When someone is done with their role in this world, they're done. It's not a punishment, not for you and not even for them.

There's no way to fully accept that here in the world of the living. We who are living want life, it's a part of us. Accepting death as neutral, or even good, would be counter to everything we're trying to do here. But do try to accept that it's not anything you did.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 3:44 am
ora_43 wrote:
Grief is complicated. There's never a point when it's completely over. Even acceptance just means accepting that it happened, with occasional, random extreme sadness.

Questioning and anger is also a kind of connection with Hashem. Maybe the usual davening isn't what you need right now, or isn't all that you need. Have you tried a 'conversation' with Hashem where you say what you said here?

Not that there's any easy answer to questions of emuna, but for what it's worth, here's my take - if you're talking about losing another person (including pregnancy loss), a big part of the answer is that it's not about anything you did, or really, about you at all. It's about the person who died, and what their neshama needed. When someone is done with their role in this world, they're done. It's not a punishment, not for you and not even for them.

There's no way to fully accept that here in the world of the living. We who are living want life, it's a part of us. Accepting death as neutral, or even good, would be counter to everything we're trying to do here. But do try to accept that it's not anything you did.

Thank you. Your words meant a lot to me!
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 4:06 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
Pain is not punishment, it’s a test. It means you have a very high neshama and Hashem knows what you need to make your neshama reach heights you’re capable of reaching, to grow closer to Him and earn tremendous olam haba, please don’t give up, read some deep books on emunah. There are people who go through pains like aleinu we can’t even fathom and they come through it stronger and closer to Hashem. People went through a Holocaust and lost their whole families but stayed with faith and got through it and rebuilt their lives. Please get a good support system, a therapist, a rabbi to talk to and most of all get good books and tapes on emunah. You will feel like a new person and will lean how to better cope.
I am not the OP but have had a lot of pain and tzuris in my life and I could never wrap my head around this idea, that I have these difficulties in my life as a test and that hashem knows why he is giving me this pain.
Well, let me say that I must have failed the tests as I no longer have an active relationship with god.
And Ive had a good support system and tried reading things (didnt help) but I definitely did not pass any tests from hashem. The pain and suffering just got more and more and I truly felt abandoned by god.
So, its not so easy to just say, its a test and if you pass it, mamish, things will be looking up. Not everyone passes the tests. Then what?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 8:57 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I didn’t want to make my op longer than it already was but I think about those special people that accept the pain all the time. And my grandparents who survived the holocaust with their emuna intact. I’m so jealous of these people. I’m so not on that level. I probably should get a good book or 2. Talking to a rabbi or therapist is not up my alley. Thanks for your suggestions.


Hugs!
I assume you mean guilt over your relationship with Hashem, not for what you could/should have done for the nifter/es? If the latter, know that his or her time was up, but Hashem wanted there to be this added level of agmas nefesh. Whether for a kaparah, learning something for going forward, whatever it is He does NOT want us to wallow in it but to take it and move forward.

About your grandparents: Yes, when we go through some tzarah we DO have to put it in the historical context. It's the meaning of HaMakom: Our pain is part of the 2000 year long national pain. But we can't say, oh, they got through so much worse, how weak and puny and lesser I am. No. First of all, through history, NOT everyone got through. Unbelievably, all sorts of people gave in to the pressure to convert in the middle ages, even learned rabbanim. (Who were very dangerous when it came to opening the Talmud up to the church.) And not everyone made it through the Holocaust intact.

But what we can do is this: What were their strengths that allowed them to do it? Can we tap into them too? Books like Holy Woman (and the astounding postscript about her husband, who kept his first family secret from her, the family that was killed during the war, so she could think that he was infertile, not she) and the Henny Machlis biography are great. These are extraordinary women but we can still learn from them, but we can't beat ourselves up over them. There are more accessible and inspiring people, who are also extraordinary but a bit more real, like Terror and Emunah in Har Nof.

Don't let yourself feel guilty over your connection with Hashem. Daven, and daven that the words penetrate your bones and that some day you feel it. It takes time to feel the words again, and that's normal.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 21 2020, 9:26 am
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I am not the OP but have had a lot of pain and tzuris in my life and I could never wrap my head around this idea, that I have these difficulties in my life as a test and that hashem knows why he is giving me this pain.
Well, let me say that I must have failed the tests as I no longer have an active relationship with god.
And Ive had a good support system and tried reading things (didnt help) but I definitely did not pass any tests from hashem. The pain and suffering just got more and more and I truly felt abandoned by god.
So, its not so easy to just say, its a test and if you pass itBut, mamish, things will be looking up. Not everyone passes the tests. Then what?


First of all hugs. If it was easy, it wouldn't be a test. I hope you find menucha in your daily life.
There is also an opinion that not everything is actually a test. Sometimes we are in a situation, and it is for whatever reason (the true answers to why bad things happen to good people, the kind of answers you find in shiurim and books like Making Sense of Suffering by Rabbi Yitzchak Kirzner, zt"l). An oft-given one is kaparah. I'm not Hashem's accountant, I won't even try to say. But it's not a matter of pass/fail, it's a matter of enduring. However we don't know which situation is nisayon, and which we are to endure, so we are to treat everything like a nisayon.

And, regardless, everything is for us to connect to Hashem. When we don't, the pain is even greater.

And anyone who's gone through pain is in the perfect position NOT to judge.
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