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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
Shortening
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 1:37 pm
Anyone knows where in Boro park I could buy shortening for baking? I saw in one grocery crisco, but I prefer with a hechsher other than ou.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:02 pm
As far as I know, Crisco and Earth Balance are the only two kosher vegetable shortenings in the United States, and both have an OU. Even if someone slaps a heimishe hashgacha on top, they will be relying on the OU.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:05 pm
amother [ Mauve ] wrote:
As far as I know, Crisco and Earth Balance are the only two kosher vegetable shortenings in the United States, and both have an OU. Even if someone slaps a heimishe hashgacha on top, they will be relying on the OU.

Thank you! I know that years ago they had with a heimish hechsher. I also know that many rabbonim that give hechsherim rely on ou. However, I’m trying to start a business from home and as of now, I don’t have a hechsher, so I want to be able to tell people that I use only heimishe hechsherim...
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:06 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you! I know that years ago they had with a heimish hechsher. I also know that many rabbonim that give hechsherim rely on ou. However, I’m trying to start a business from home and as of now, I don’t have a hechsher, so I want to be able to tell people that I use only heimishe hechsherim...


Good luck!! I would suggest asking caterers or bakeries with the hashgacha that you want where they get their shortening.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:09 pm
amother [ Mauve ] wrote:
Good luck!! I would suggest asking caterers or bakeries with the hashgacha that you want where they get their shortening.

Thanks for the suggestion. I don’t think that would work, because I don’t know if any business would share with me where they get it. Also, chances are that they use ou, and their bal machshir approves of it. Even though heimishe bal machshirim approve, I can’t rely on that without my personal bal machshir.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:51 pm
This may sound stupid, but can anyone tell be what shortening actually is?

Growing up in England I had never heard of it, and only came across it when I started reading American recipes. Now I have also seen it a couple of times in shops here in Israel.

I understand that it is some kind of fat, but what is unique about it, distinguishing it from oil, butter and margarine? When I have seen it is is on supermarket shelves rather than in the refrigerator, so does it not need to be kept cold? That would sound like a high proportion of saturated fats. Or is it 'refrigerate after opening'?

When I come across it in a recipe, I always just use whatever kind of fat seems suitable to the recipe. It seems to work. If OP can't find shortening with the hechsher that she wants, this might be an option to consider.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 2:58 pm
Elfrida wrote:
This may sound stupid, but can anyone tell be what shortening actually is?

Growing up in England I had never heard of it, and only came across it when I started reading American recipes. Now I have also seen it a couple of times in shops here in Israel.

I understand that it is some kind of fat, but what is unique about it, distinguishing it from oil, butter and margarine? When I have seen it is is on supermarket shelves rather than in the refrigerator, so does it not need to be kept cold? That would sound like a high proportion of saturated fats. Or is it 'refrigerate after opening'?

When I come across it in a recipe, I always just use whatever kind of fat seems suitable to the recipe. It seems to work. If OP can't find shortening with the hechsher that she wants, this might be an option to consider.

Not stupid at all!! I myself am not 100% sure how to explain what it is. The reason I want to use it is, because it gives off a pure white coloring vs margarine or oil
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:31 pm
Elfrida wrote:
This may sound stupid, but can anyone tell be what shortening actually is?

Growing up in England I had never heard of it, and only came across it when I started reading American recipes. Now I have also seen it a couple of times in shops here in Israel.

I understand that it is some kind of fat, but what is unique about it, distinguishing it from oil, butter and margarine? When I have seen it is is on supermarket shelves rather than in the refrigerator, so does it not need to be kept cold? That would sound like a high proportion of saturated fats. Or is it 'refrigerate after opening'?

When I come across it in a recipe, I always just use whatever kind of fat seems suitable to the recipe. It seems to work. If OP can't find shortening with the hechsher that she wants, this might be an option to consider.


I'm a bit of a baking geek in terms of learning the science behind why certain techniques are used.

Shortening replaced lard as a fat used in baking. What most people refer to as "shortening" now are brands like Crisco which was the first commercially prepared solid vegetable fat. It was used in baked items like pie crusts to produce the flaky type of crust that most people considered to be the mark of a high quality pie crust. And - at one time - hydrogenated vegetable fat was considered healthier than animal fat but that's another story. And of course, lard is not kosher Smile

Shortening is not completely interchangeable with either butter or even margarine because margarine and butter contain some degree of water which produces a different result. Also it has a different melting point which creates a different result as well - to some extent the "rise" of baked goods is created because the fat doesn't melt immediately and contributes to the rise. That's why most excellent cookie recipes (for example) suggest chilling the dough after you place on the cookie sheet and before baking to maximize the time before the butter melts in the oven and this produces less spread and more "loft".

And don't get me started on subbing oil for any kind of solid fat - can't be done because oil is liquid immediately. There are some delicious baked goods made with oil like chiffon cakes but taking a recipe which calls for butter or other solid fat/shortening won't produce the result that was intended by the recipe. And, subbing butter or margarine in a recipe which specifies shortening won't produce optimum results. Many of the best pie crusts are a mixture of shortening for flakiness with cold butter to create the delicious taste of real butter.

Off my geek soapbox. LOL


Last edited by Amarante on Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:31 pm
Quote:
Not stupid at all!! I myself am not 100% sure how to explain what it is. The reason I want to use it is, because it gives off a pure white coloring vs margarine or oil

Ok. Aesthetics are not something I had thought of, but a yellowish tinge could affect the look of the finished product. I suppose that wouldn't matter for a chocolate cake.


Last edited by Elfrida on Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:33 pm
Elfrida wrote:
Ok. Aesthetics are not something I had thought of, but a yellowish tinge could affect the look of the finished product. I suppose that wouldn't matter for a chocolate cake.

Right, but when I need a pure white cream.....
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:34 pm
The only other non-commercial companies I know of, Nutiva and Spectrum, are also just OU.

You could try reaching out to bakeries like someone mentioned, and instead of asking them their trade secrets, ask what hechsher theirs is and if you can buy off of them. Many bakeries will let you buy fresh yeast and artisanal flours off of them, so it's possible they'll share that, too.

Have you tried using coconut oil in your recipes instead? It seems to be a popular substitute.

Elfrida, shortening is another type of fat like margarine and butter. It has a lower water content however which can sometimes be better for what you're making-- e.g. a "buttercream" frosting will usually be stiffer and be more defined if made with shortening, although flavor might suffer. Many chefs compromise by using half shortening and half butter/margarine.

Edit: Amarante beat me to it with a much better and detailed explanation! Lol


Last edited by Frumme on Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:36 pm
Frumme wrote:
The only other non-commercial companies I know of, Nutiva and Spectrum, are also just OU.

You could try reaching out to bakeries like someone mentioned, and instead of asking them their trade secrets, ask what hechsher theirs is and if you can buy off of them. Many bakeries will let you buy fresh yeast and artisanal flours off of them, so it's possible they'll share that, too.

Have you tried using coconut oil in your recipes instead? It seems to be a popular substitute.

Elfrida, shortening is another type of fat like margarine and butter. It has a lower water content however which can sometimes be better for what you're making-- e.g. a "buttercream" frosting will usually be stiffer and be more defined if made with shortening, although flavor might suffer. Many chefs compromise by using half shortening and half butter/margarine.

Thanks, but as I mentioned I need the pure white color..not sure coconut oil would do the trick
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks, but as I mentioned I need the pure white color..not sure coconut oil would do the trick


Why not? Coconut oil is pure white. Get the refined one if you want it to be free of any coconut taste.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:40 pm
Frumme wrote:
Why not? Coconut oil is pure white. Get the refined one if you want it to be free of any coconut taste.

Thanks a lot for the idea!!
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:42 pm
Amarante wrote:
I'm a bit of a baking geek in terms of learning the science behind why certain techniques are used.

Shortening replaced lard as a fat used in baking. What most people refer to as "shortening" now are brands like Crisco which was the first commercially prepared solid vegetable fat. It was used in baked items like pie crusts to produce the flaky type of crust that most people considered to be the mark of a high quality pie crust. And - at one time - hydrogenated vegetable fat was considered healthier than animal fat but that's another story. And of course, lard is not kosher Smile

Shortening is not completely interchangeable with either butter or even margarine because margarine and butter contain some degree of water which produces a different result. Also it has a different melting point which creates a different result as well - to some extent the "rise" of baked goods is created because the fat doesn't melt immediately and contributes to the rise. That's why most excellent cookie recipes (for example) suggest chilling the dough after you place on the cookie sheet and before baking to maximize the time before the butter melts in the oven and this produces less spread and more "loft".

And don't get me started on subbing oil for any kind of solid fat - can't be done because oil liquid immediately. There are some delicious baked goods made with oil like chiffon cakes but taking a recipe which calls for butter or other solid fat/shortening won't produce the result that was intended by the recipe. And, subbing butter or margarine in a recipe which specifies shortening won't produce optimum results. Many of the best pie crusts are a mixture of shortening for flakiness with cold butter to create the delicious taste of real butter.

Off my geek soapbox. LOL


That was comprehensive. Thank you. I wonder why it remained an exclusively American product.

I've seen plenty of recipes with lard, which I automatically switch for margarine (and if that has a detrimental affect on the recipe; well, I have other priorities!) but I'd really never come across shortening. Maybe some kind of culinary snobbery...
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:46 pm
I wanted to add that European or Irish butter is different than American butter because European butter has a lower water content than American butter. Some recipes will specify European butter to produce optimum results.

At one time margarine had no color. Despite the objection of the dairy industry, yellow food color was allowed to be added to margarine for aesthetic reasons. I think this was during WW II when even the US population had stamps for strategic items like butter and beef which were supposed to be used for the troops.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 3:49 pm
I don't know about American, but I know that English butter (chalav yisrael) is much better than Israeli butter. I bring some back for a treat whenever I visit England.
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egam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 4:10 pm
I do not believe that you can substitute coconut oil for shortening in a buttercream. They have different textures and melting temperatures. You'll probably able to frost the cake, but won't be able to pipe anything. It will be too soft. And you'll have to keep it refrigerated at all times. You can try margarine and add the white coloring to make it white. But regardless of what you use, shortening or margarine, the taste will be absolutely revolting.
One more thing to try is a Betterine. It's white (though not as white as shortening) and has the New Square Kashruth, but it's much more expensive.

https://betterine.com/
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 4:48 pm
egam wrote:
I do not believe that you can substitute coconut oil for shortening in a buttercream. They have different textures and melting temperatures. You'll probably able to frost the cake, but won't be able to pipe anything. It will be too soft. And you'll have to keep it refrigerated at all times. You can try margarine and add the white coloring to make it white. But regardless of what you use, shortening or margarine, the taste will be absolutely revolting.
One more thing to try is a Betterine. It's white (though not as white as shortening) and has the New Square Kashruth, but it's much more expensive.

https://betterine.com/

I actually want to use it for a kalla cake, so chances are it anyways won’t get eaten.
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egam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2020, 5:17 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I actually want to use it for a kalla cake, so chances are it anyways won’t get eaten.


If no one is eating it anyway, how about decorating it with fondant? Gefen makes one with heimishe hechsher.

If you are making it for a vort, you need something stable, that's not going to melt and run.
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