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For anyone who thinks covid is just as dangerous as the flu
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 6:45 am
What people don't seem to understand is that even if COVID-19 doesn't kill you, you don't bounce back within a day or two of recovery like you do with flu.

Even people who had mild cases, but especially people who had moderate or severe cases, take months and months to recover.

A coworker who had a mild case in March (and came back in early April) still doesn't have full lung capacity back and constantly feels short of breath. A rav in his 60s who had a mild case before Pesach and was recovered within two weeks now has a hard time walking. Perfectly healthy young parents now faint and have trouble functioning at work.

This isn't like the flu, where when it's gone it's gone. COVID-19 sticks around and its effects linger for a long time.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:14 am
allthingsblue wrote:
So far, the amount of ppl who died from covid is much greater than those who died from the flu- but that's WITH social distancing. Had we not had a lockdown, the numbers would have been catastrophically greater.
No, covid is not just as dangerous as the flu- it's a lot more.

Put #COVID19 in perspective. America is a nation with 329 million people. Last count 120,000 or so have died from COVID19 & other causes. The death rate is currently at .04% in America. How many of these people actually died of hospital neglect and incompetency (as well as ridiculous policies like the one NY had about nursing homes accepting people with coronavirus, etc) instead of covid? Covid numbers are inflated because of #CDC guidelines & financial incentives for hospitals & states to inflate cases.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:16 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Put #COVID19 in perspective. America is a nation with 329 million people. Last count 120,000 or so have died from COVID19 & other causes. The death rate is currently at .04% in America. How many of these people actually died of hospital neglect and incompetency (as well as ridiculous policies like the one NY had about nursing homes accepting people with coronavirus, etc) instead of covid? Covid numbers are inflated because of #CDC guidelines & financial incentives for hospitals & states to inflate cases.

What number, or percentage, of deaths, is acceptable to you?

And would you be okay with that number if it included your own family members?
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amother
Natural


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:23 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
What number, or percentage, of deaths, is acceptable to you?

And would you be okay with that number if it included your own family members?

Obviously no one should die of coronavirus. or the flu. or heart attacks. or car accidents. not even of old age. Because that is what life is all about, living forever. And we should have world peace too. Time for Mashiach to come so that we can accomplish these goals.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:24 am
Not sure about all the data but one thing is fsure. It was a direct message from Hashem. You can’t deny that the Jewish community was very hard hit. It was a mageifa. It appears that so much less people are being hospitalized now and they know a lot more how to treat it then in the beginning.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:26 am
Thank you natural. It’s not all or nothing.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:29 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Obviously no one should die of coronavirus. or the flu. or heart attacks. or car accidents. not even of old age. Because that is what life is all about, living forever. And we should have world peace too. Time for Mashiach to come so that we can accomplish these goals.

Your post was basically saying that coronavirus is no big deal, and hinting that many of the deaths caused by coronavirus weren't really caused by coronavirus.

Lo taamod al dam rey'echa is pretty important if you want Moshiach to come, don't you think?
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:31 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Put #COVID19 in perspective. America is a nation with 329 million people. Last count 120,000 or so have died from COVID19 & other causes. The death rate is currently at .04% in America. How many of these people actually died of hospital neglect and incompetency (as well as ridiculous policies like the one NY had about nursing homes accepting people with coronavirus, etc) instead of covid? Covid numbers are inflated because of #CDC guidelines & financial incentives for hospitals & states to inflate cases.


A death rate of 0.04% in half a year just for one cause of mortality is enormous!!!!

In general, about 1,2% of the population in a give country (with an age structure like the USA) die "naturally" every year... that would be an average of 0,1% of the population every month.

New York City alread lost over 0,2% of their population to Covid, in about 3-4 months!!!
So in this period, on average, 0.4% of the population would have died anyway, and 50% of them were through Covid... Or mortality increased by 50% over this period...

..which is also what the studies in Europa show, in the most affected regions.

Their mortality rates doubled, tripled, quadrupled in the most affected regions at peak periods...
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:32 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Not sure about all the data but one thing is fsure. It was a direct message from Hashem. You can’t deny that the Jewish community was very hard hit. It was a mageifa. It appears that so much less people are being hospitalized now and they know a lot more how to treat it then in the beginning.


But that is because areas with Jewish communities were hit blind and frum Jewish lifestyle exposes yourself to superspread events (indoor shuls, chasunas with live music indoors etc). Non Jewish areas in NY were harder hit than frum ones and its likely sonce NYC was hit so blind and reacted so slowly that all New Yorkers were hard hit (think of superspreading situations like a musical, subway performance, etc.) As Jewish people we should always try to relate to something spiritually but we also need to look at the greater picture which can help us be more prepared next time chv (as should the govt)
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:34 am
nchr wrote:
But that is because areas with Jewish communities were hit blind and frum Jewish lifestyle exposes yourself to superspread events (indoor shuls, chasunas with live music indoors etc). Non Jewish areas in NY were harder hit than frum ones and its likely sonce NYC was hit so blind and reacted so slowly that all New Yorkers were hard hit (think of superspreading situations like a musical, subway performance, etc.)

Still, I think it means Hashem is trying to tell us something.

Israel's numbers stayed low until schools reopened, and even then they didn't rise until there was talk of extending the school year.

Yesterday there were 668 new cases in one day. Evidently Hashem is trying to tell them something - maybe "keep your schools closed"? We don't need to know why Hashem is doing something but it's always smart to take hints before they become hard slaps.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:40 am
Ora in town wrote:
A death rate of 0.04% in half a year just for one cause of mortality is enormous!!!!

In general, about 1,2% of the population in a give country (with an age structure like the USA) die "naturally" every year... that would be an average of 0,1% of the population every month.

New York City alread lost over 0,2% of their population to Covid, in about 3-4 months!!!
So in this period, on average, 0.4% of the population would have died anyway, and 50% of them were through Covid... Or mortality increased by 50% over this period...

..which is also what the studies in Europa show, in the most affected regions.

Their mortality rates doubled, tripled, quadrupled in the most affected regions at peak periods...

Interesting that you disregard the fact that the policies of local officials (I.e Cuomos nursing home policy) and the neglect of patients in hospital played a huge role in the death. Not to mention that people still had coronavirus listed as reason for death even if they died of other causes. So the numbers are presumably lower than .04%.
Btw, thousands of people die of flu every year, did anyone die of flu this year? Or was their reason for death listed as coronavirus to inflate the numbers for financial reasons (as well as to spread fear)?
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:43 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
Still, I think it means Hashem is trying to tell us something.

Israel's numbers stayed low until schools reopened, and even then they didn't rise until there was talk of extending the school year.

Yesterday there were 668 new cases in one day. Evidently Hashem is trying to tell them something - maybe "keep your schools closed"? We don't need to know why Hashem is doing something but it's always smart to take hints before they become hard slaps.


Which is fine, but we also need to realize that there should be a plan in case chv it happens again. For example, not warning shuls before Purim was a failure of the gvt to protect a large portion of its citizens, especialling knowing what we now know about religious ceremonies (and we knew a lot then too since 2 previous outbreaks outside of the US had been tied to superspreading with religious events and singing etc) On the other hand, you cannot expect the gvt to pass law applicable only to Jewish ppl (that is one of the reasons I do not support the camp initiative - I don't want to set a precedent that Jewish exceptipns exist legally because maybe this time we welcome it but next time we may not) so our communities should plan for not being blind next time chv and hopefully there won't be a next time.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:45 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
Your post was basically saying that coronavirus is no big deal, and hinting that many of the deaths caused by coronavirus weren't really caused by coronavirus.

Lo taamod al dam rey'echa is pretty important if you want Moshiach to come, don't you think?

When you have hospital neglect and bad policies like the nursing home policy in NY then you have to question whether these folks died because of coronavirus or if more lives could have been saved with appropriate care and policies. Unless you are saying that Lo Taamod al dam rey'echa does not include ensuring that there is no hospital neglect or old people being exposed because of incompetent politicians? Especially since we had the Javitz center and hospital boat where we could have sent people instead of loading them into nursing homes or hospitals so why were they not utilized? Why did cuomo allow for ventilators to be shared when he was stockpiling thousands of them? Why are hospitals listing coronavirus as cause of death if they are not getting any money out of it? These are questions that need answers in order to understand just how "dangerous" coronavirus really is.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:45 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Obviously no one should die of coronavirus. or the flu. or heart attacks. or car accidents. not even of old age. Because that is what life is all about, living forever. And we should have world peace too. Time for Mashiach to come so that we can accomplish these goals.


At present, the case/fatality rate for Covid19 in the US is around 5%, and the US are not yet at the end of the cycle.

That would be 50 times the mortality of flu.

some countries have case/fatality rates over 20%. That would be 200 times the mortality of flu.

Even if you estimate that in the US (who test "too much" and "more than any other country" according to Trump) only 10% of the carriers are identified, and you multiply the number of registered cases by 10 to find the "number of people who were really infected", this would leave you with a case/fatality rate of 0,5%, which is still 5 times deadlier than the flu!


Last edited by Ora in town on Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:47 am
Chayalle wrote:
Let's put it this way - I hear of like, one or two deaths from the flu every few years.

I personally know several people who died from the coronavirus.

During the peak COVID19 season, I was dreading opening my computer and seeing the headlines every day, saying who passed away......

So in my personal experience, COVID19 has been far more deadly.

Actually I never heard of anyone I knew or thought I knew dying from the flu, in all my life...

this is really a rare occurence...
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:51 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
When you have hospital neglect and bad policies like the nursing home policy in NY then you have to question whether these folks died because of coronavirus or if more lives could have been saved with appropriate care and policies. Unless you are saying that Lo Taamod al dam rey'echa does not include ensuring that there is no hospital neglect or old people being exposed because of incompetent politicians? Especially since we had the Javitz center and hospital boat where we could have sent people instead of loading them into nursing homes or hospitals so why were they not utilized? Why did cuomo allow for ventilators to be shared when he was stockpiling thousands of them? Why are hospitals listing coronavirus as cause of death if they are not getting any money out of it? These are questions that need answers in order to understand just how "dangerous" coronavirus really is.

You seem to think that coronavirus statistics and truths begin and end with NYS, and specifically with NYC. And they don't.

You're also conveniently forgetting that had the hospitals not been so overwhelmed, the quality of care would have been much better and a lot of your complaints would be irrelevant.

Did NYS fail? Yes. But it failed at both the governmental level and at the private citizen level. Too many NYC residents discounted the severity of the virus and they are a major part of why so many people died.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 9:00 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
When you have hospital neglect and bad policies like the nursing home policy in NY then you have to question whether these folks died because of coronavirus or if more lives could have been saved with appropriate care and policies. Unless you are saying that Lo Taamod al dam rey'echa does not include ensuring that there is no hospital neglect or old people being exposed because of incompetent politicians? Especially since we had the Javitz center and hospital boat where we could have sent people instead of loading them into nursing homes or hospitals so why were they not utilized? Why did cuomo allow for ventilators to be shared when he was stockpiling thousands of them? Why are hospitals listing coronavirus as cause of death if they are not getting any money out of it? These are questions that need answers in order to understand just how "dangerous" coronavirus really is.


This accusation is so unfair to those health care workers who did their best to cope in an impossible situation.

An impossible situation that would have been avoidable if politicians and citizens had taken effective preventive measures from early February.

It is also so intellectually dishonest to take the fact that the health care system was overwhelmed as an argument NOT to take preventive measures...

See, you are getting cause and consequence all mixed up here.

There is/was a deadly virus in circulation. If systematic detection and prevention had started as soon as this fact was known, if politicians and population had panicked, like the South Koreans, when almost nothing was visible yet, YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTEND OVER 120'000 DEATHS IN THE US.

South Korea intervened early. They saw that shlt hit the fan when they had a few dozen cases.
They knew from experience (with MERS) that this was moment to act rigorously and decisivly.
They managed to keep their death count under 300!!! 6 deaths per million people... as opposed to 383 in the USA and 2190 in New York City!!! 60 times less than the USA!!! 350 times less than Ney york city!!!


In the USA, the inaction took over 120'000 lives.

And now there are politicians callling for inaction, protesting against effective prevention measures in those states that have been spared, more or less, up to now... It is as if they wanted to kill their population on purpose.


Last edited by Ora in town on Fri, Jun 26 2020, 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Natural


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 9:01 am
Ora in town wrote:
At present, the case/fatality rate for Covid19 in the US is around 5%, and the US are not yet at the end of the cycle.

That would be 50 times the mortality of flu.

some countries have case/fatality rates over 20%. That would be 200 times the mortality of flu.

Even if you estimate that in the US (who test "too much" and "more than any other country" according to Trump) only 10% of the carriers are identify, and you multiply the number of registered cases by 10 to find the "number of people who were really infected", this would leave you with a case/fatality rate of 0,5%, which is still 5 times deadlier than the flu!

The death rate for coronavirus in America is .04%. This includes those that died because of hospital neglect, bad govt policies like the nursing home policy in NY, the refusal to use stockpiled ventilators, the refusal to utilize makeshift hospitals, etc. It also includes those listed as dying because of coronavirus even if they died for other reasons. And there is no preventative shot for coronavirus like we have for the flu shot.
We have thousands dying from the flu every year despite the fact that we have a preventative flu shot. So the rate of coronavirus, without a preventative shot and with all the problems listed above surrounding it is still not as dangerous as you claim it to be.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 9:06 am
Ora in town wrote:
This accusation is so unfair to those health care workers who did their best to cope in an impossible situation.

An impossible situation that would have been avoidable if politicians and citizens had taken effective preventive measures from early February.

It is also so intellectually dishonest to take the fact that the health care system was overwhelmed as an argument NOT to take preventive measures...

See, you are getting cause and consequence all mixed up here.

There is/was a deadly virus in circulation. If systematic detection and prevention had started as soon as this fact was known, if politicians and population had panicked, like the South Koreans, when almost nothing was visible yet, YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTEND OVER 100'000 DEATHS IN THE US.

The inaction took over 100'000 lives.

And now there are politicians callling for inaction, protesting against effective prevention measures in those states that have been spared, more or less, up to now... It is as if they wanted to kill their population on purpose.

I think it's more like people are willing to kill their neighbors and in denial that they themselves could be the ones killed.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 9:06 am
Right natural!

Sorry Ora even the most inflated figures no one claims 5% B"H!

While we can evaluate current info and facts as it comes in we certainly do not have to engage in fear mongering or get sucked into that anymore B"H.
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