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For anyone who thinks covid is just as dangerous as the flu
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 1:08 pm
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
The virus came from Europe? LOL! China really has some great PR in America.
And Israel locked down early before too many people got coronavirus, now they are open and people are getting it so its not different from other states who locked down before many people got coronavirus. So perhaps in order to not get any new cases or barely any, you need to let many people get infected (and/or die) like NY? Is this what you are trying to say?


The virus came into New York predominantly from Europe,hundreds of thousands of Europeans come through our state yearly..

Your last sentence makes no sense. We locked down and are opening up in phases by region..this is why rates are done. Florida and Texas are no closing down again Bec they opened to soon.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 1:16 pm
amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:
The virus came into New York from Europe and we got walloped before we even knew it existed. Of course NY had the most cases Bec,by the time we knew about this virus it was too late. Other states such as Florida and Texas knew better and should know better. The fact that cases are spiking and so is the rate of hospitalizations,is inexcusable. New York learned a lesson the hard way,but it was learned and that's why there are barely any new cases compared to three months ago.


We knew it existed. We -- and I include myself here, at the beginning -- just thought it wouldn't affect us the way it affected other countries. In retrospect, it was pure hubris.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 1:27 pm
Laiya wrote:
I hadn't heard this. Can you explain please?


There has been an increase in cardiac related fatalities at home. Increase in cardiac arrest mortality. As well as an increase in other deaths. Some of this is from individuals who died at home and were COVID19 positive, but were never tests. Others are from individuals who had COVID19 but intentionally were not tested in order to avoid being stuck at the hospital until they receive a negative test. Others are individuals who may not have had COVID19, but could not get appropriate medical care due to overburdened EMS services and hospitals. NYC, for example, had about 200 extra at home deaths per day this year during March & April than compared to the years before.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 1:35 pm
nchr wrote:
There has been an increase in cardiac related fatalities at home. Increase in cardiac arrest mortality. As well as an increase in other deaths. Some of this is from individuals who died at home and were COVID19 positive, but were never tests. Others are from individuals who had COVID19 but intentionally were not tested in order to avoid being stuck at the hospital until they receive a negative test. Others are individuals who may not have had COVID19, but could not get appropriate medical care due to overburdened EMS services and hospitals. NYC, for example, had about 200 extra at home deaths per day this year during March & April than compared to the years before.


I know of two people who had heart attacks and passed away during the peak COVID19 outbreak in the greater NY metro area, both with no previously known heart conditions. I wonder if they had the virus and were asymptomatic, and if it could suddenly cause heart failure.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 26 2020, 2:02 pm
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
I know of two people who had heart attacks and passed away during the peak COVID19 outbreak in the greater NY metro area, both with no previously known heart conditions. I wonder if they had the virus and were asymptomatic, and if it could suddenly cause heart failure.


Yes, it can.

The virus also attacks the inner coating of the blood vessels and can cause blood cloths which in turn can cause cardiac arrest or strokes, etc...

I know of someone who unfortunately passed away like this, diagnosed as a Covid-death (but he had also other symptoms of covid before)
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 27 2020, 2:48 pm
Laiya wrote:
I hadn't heard this. Can you explain please?

What nchr said.

Excess deaths in NYC

The CDC report

The basic idea is that some covid19 deaths aren't reported as such for various reasons - eg people were never tested, or got a false negative. In order to estimate how many deaths like that there were, researchers look at how many people died in past years, and how off we are this year from what's normal.

Not all of the extra deaths were caused by covid. There were also, unfortunately, people who died at home of things like heart attacks because they were afraid to go to the hospital. IOW deaths that are "attributable to the pandemic," but not part of the covid19 mortality calculation.

(in my second calculation I assumed almost 95% covid-related, which is almost certainly too high; I was going for an upper limit)


Last edited by ora_43 on Sat, Jun 27 2020, 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 27 2020, 4:24 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
Wow Ora what’s with the language? Won’t quote it but really some expressions are not found on this forum - since you are still relatively new you might not have realized

I don't know what you're referring to but I don't think she's a native English speaker.

Sometimes when you learn a second language you don't know all the nuances regarding what is considered unacceptable to say.

If you have something to say about the words someone uses, you can PM them and tell them, "I'm not sure if you're aware, but ___ isn't really a word that's okay to use. It means ____ but in a really crass way."
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amother
Copper


 

Post Sat, Jun 27 2020, 4:32 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
[u] So what is hashem telling us? It's been over 3 months and you say hashem is telling us....."something". If I ask 10 different rabbanim I'll get 11 different answers. Anything from talking in shul, cell phones in shul, weddings were to extravagant, to women need to...(fill in the blank).

Look, if we don't know what the message is then there's no message. Do you know what the message is? And by the way, once you're telling me the message, can you tell me what the messages were during any of the terrible and tragic events that have happened throughout our history? In fact can you tell me what the message was in any single one of those terrible events?


I think we can figure out what Hashem is trying to tell us by looking at what the results are.

For instance if the results are that schools are closed, and only keeping schools closed is what keeps the virus at bay, that means that we need to examine the system and our priorities and rethink who we send to school, when, where, what the school is, etc.

If the result is that workplaces lay off half their employees, or put them to working from home, then we need to think - maybe many of us are working too long and too hard? Maybe we should be pushing to allow us to work from home?

If the results are that our gedolim are dying then we need to think why, why are our gedolim dying, why do we no longer deserve to have them with us? Etc.

Not on an individual scale but on a community level, as a community/ state/ city/ country, what we need to do.

I don't know the answers but I do know that we should be asking the questions instead of complaining and pushing everything to reopen.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 1:03 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I think we can figure out what Hashem is trying to tell us by looking at what the results are.

For instance if the results are that schools are closed, and only keeping schools closed is what keeps the virus at bay, that means that we need to examine the system and our priorities and rethink who we send to school, when, where, what the school is, etc.

If the result is that workplaces lay off half their employees, or put them to working from home, then we need to think - maybe many of us are working too long and too hard? Maybe we should be pushing to allow us to work from home?

If the results are that our gedolim are dying then we need to think why, why are our gedolim dying, why do we no longer deserve to have them with us? Etc.

Not on an individual scale but on a community level, as a community/ state/ city/ country, what we need to do.

I don't know the answers but I do know that we should be asking the questions instead of complaining and pushing everything to reopen.



maybe your correct but I think you're oversimplifying things and pretending that hashem runs the world in a way that things make sense. unfortunately Things don't make sense.

You say we can figure out what hashem is telling us by looking at the results. If my son loses his tefilin, is the message that hashem doesn't want him wearing tefilin anymore?
If my shul has a bikur cholim program on shabbos where people visit nuring homes and now we can't visit anymore, is the message that hashem doesn't want us visiting nursing homes anymore?
If I normally have guests for shabbos including people who don't fit in and have no place to go and now I can't host them, is hashem's message that I shouldn't invite needy guests anymore?

Lastly, you say that you don't know the answers. That essentially means you aren't getting the message hashem is telling us.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:18 am
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
maybe your correct but I think you're oversimplifying things and pretending that hashem runs the world in a way that things make sense. unfortunately Things don't make sense.

You say we can figure out what hashem is telling us by looking at the results. If my son loses his tefilin, is the message that hashem doesn't want him wearing tefilin anymore?
If my shul has a bikur cholim program on shabbos where people visit nuring homes and now we can't visit anymore, is the message that hashem doesn't want us visiting nursing homes anymore?
If I normally have guests for shabbos including people who don't fit in and have no place to go and now I can't host them, is hashem's message that I shouldn't invite needy guests anymore?

Lastly, you say that you don't know the answers. That essentially means you aren't getting the message hashem is telling us.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying things but I think refusing as a community to try to figure out the message is gross negligence.

Your son's tefillin aren't a good example because only your son lost his tefillin. If his entire yeshiva lost their tefillin or had them stolen, within a week or a month of each other, then maybe you'd be able to compare.

About the nursing homes, there are communities which found ways to solve that problem, like switching it from Shabbos to a different day so that they could do other things, or standing outside the window and dancing and singing, or sending food instead of visiting, or whatever.

Guests for Shabbos maybe you have a point, but maybe the point isn't that you shouldn't invite guests but that we need to lower our standards and worry about the people we're not inviting as guests. I don't know, figure it out yourself.

Like I said I don't have answers but I do know that on a communal level we need to be thinking about what Hashem is trying to tell us. And it's not that we shouldn't wear chenille snoods or not use the internet or start wearing shawls or whatnot.

This is something none of us have ever seen and we need to figure out what he message is.

Look, you want the truth? I think I know one of the answers. But I'm not a navi, I'm not a rav, and no one wants to hear my thoughts on it. And I don't have the rest of the answers, just that one that to me is glaringly obvious. So I'll just sit back and ask everyone to do a community think session and figure out what in their communal lives has been MOST affected and what one thing has impacted the MOST people and messed up the MOST schedules and what one thing that you can't do without are you now being forced to do without. And go from there.

Because you know what? I think that even if we don't get the full message, if Hashem sees that we understood one of the main points He might just have rachamim and stop this plague and let us change that one thing and then give us another century or two to start changing the rest.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 8:17 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I don't know the answers but I do know that we should be asking the questions instead of complaining and pushing everything to reopen.


I agree. We should be asking questions.
But cautious reopening should be ok. It just can't be business as usual in our mosdos and interactions.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 8:19 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:


Look, you want the truth? I think I know one of the answers. But I'm not a navi, I'm not a rav, and no one wants to hear my thoughts on it. And I don't have the rest of the answers, just that one that to me is glaringly obvious. So I'll just sit back and ask everyone to do a community think session and figure out what in their communal lives has been MOST affected and what one thing has impacted the MOST people and messed up the MOST schedules and what one thing that you can't do without are you now being forced to do without. And go from there.

Because you know what? I think that even if we don't get the full message, if Hashem sees that we understood one of the main points He might just have rachamim and stop this plague and let us change that one thing and then give us another century or two to start changing the rest.


So often when people see messages, it's for yenem not themselves.
But there's no question that we have to double down on good behavior in shuls, respect for rabbanim, respect - and awe - for our teachers and schools.
And let's daven that we see a historical cyclical reality: when we go through something cataclysmic, a tekufa of peace and bracha follows. Let's daven that we see it and maximize the potential it offers.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 11:55 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
No, 41% or I should say 42% (if you round it up-41.99%) who tested positive for coronavirus recovered (many people are still sick so they are not included in this recovery or death statistics). That is if you want to include only people who tested positive for coronavirus (which is how you got 5% of deaths, otherwise its .04%). Only 8% of people who tested for coronavirus in America tested positive so again, the numbers are low and not as dangerous as you think it is. Hopefully other states will learn from NY and do things differently so that they minimize the deaths in their states.


The recovery rate is not accurate, because many places have no obligation to register recovery, so they really don't know anything about it...

That's a non-entity as a figure...


Last edited by Ora in town on Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 11:57 am
For Hashem's Message we can look to our history: Tehilim, tefila, tzedaka...

Look at Malkat Esther!

And Mordechai!

And so many more in our great history for what we need to be doing now!

Moshiach now!
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 12:05 pm
banana123 wrote:
I don't know what you're referring to but I don't think she's a native English speaker.

Sometimes when you learn a second language you don't know all the nuances regarding what is considered unacceptable to say.

If you have something to say about the words someone uses, you can PM them and tell them, "I'm not sure if you're aware, but ___ isn't really a word that's okay to use. It means ____ but in a really crass way."


I also didn't see what she is referring to, but I'll add that even among native English speakers there are words that are more or less offensive, and some not at all - certainly there are differences between Britain, and America with regards to offensive wording.
I remember years ago when a Rebbetzen from one country used a word that the Americans thought unbecoming, which in her country of origin was used colloquially without batting an eyelid.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 1:21 pm
We have ACHDUS!!!

Republican imas, anti-vax imas & middle-upper class pro vax yuppie imas agree. Masks are not necessary! Who woulda thunk!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:26 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
We have ACHDUS!!!

Republican imas, anti-vax imas & middle-upper class pro vax yuppie imas agree. Masks are not necessary! Who woulda thunk!


I'd like to think we have achdus based on other things too. Because I'm not so sure I agree about masks.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:38 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
We have ACHDUS!!!

Republican imas, anti-vax imas & middle-upper class pro vax yuppie imas agree. Masks are not necessary! Who woulda thunk!


You got it wrong.

Masks are necessary in public transport and crowded places...
Or in indoor places where you stay for a long time and everybody shares the same air they breathe...
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:42 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
We have ACHDUS!!!

Republican imas, anti-vax imas & middle-upper class pro vax yuppie imas agree. Masks are not necessary! Who woulda thunk!


Please tell me your forgot to use the /sarcasm font.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2020, 2:44 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I agree. We should be asking questions.
But cautious reopening should be ok. It just can't be business as usual in our mosdos and interactions.

I don't think we're being cautious at all, that's the problem.
I think we are too wrapped up in what we want and have thrown caution to the wind.
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