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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 12:20 pm
Elfrida wrote:
re: parents/grandparents not understanding their children/grandchildren


That's also the place where you can lay the foundations for bilingualism...

That's a topic that interests me and I observe around me.

Children tend to adopt the language of their school / surroundings as a first language, even if both parents speak another language.

So actually the courtesy towards the grandparents is the children's opportunity to become more fluent in the "other" language...
I think it's best to give them all the words they need... I.e. to act as a dictionary next to them (not to make them think and find the word on their own)...

But I definitely see that children who HAVE to speak their parent's first language (because the parents/grandparents really don't understand them otherwise), over time, have better skills in that language than those who don't (because parents are bilingual too)...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 12:37 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
We have this attitude in the US as well with people who come from Spanish speaking countries. It is totally possible to get around without ever learning English but looked down upon by Americans. I’m assuming it’s similar. What’s the best way to learn Hebrew? Ulpan classes or something else?


In my view it's immersion: intensive language course for 4-8 weeks... they have an excellent "Rothberg school of languages" at the Universita Ivrit in Jerusalem.... There they have summer courses and year-round courses for everyone... many students = classes for every level...

But on the other hand, not everyone learns with equal ease... if you never spoke a foreign language it's harder than if you grew up bilingual... I suppose I pick up languages fairly easily...

I was in an intensive ulpan-avoda for 6 weeks in a kibbutz, worked in the children's house, the children made fun of me and I had no authority over them, but I learned really well with them...
So I think: The best, best way is learning from children...
I had an excellent 4-year old hebrew teacher...

Now I try to keep up by listening to university lectures or soap operas or tv programs in ivrit... and I have occasions to speak...

Israelis are very helpful for hebrew learners. I learned a lot through conversation... and not being ashamed to ask when I don't understand... Israelis are really helpful in explaining and correcting...
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SacN




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 12:44 pm
Quote:
Israelis are really helpful in explaining and correcting...


Hilarious. I still remember the first time I asked a bus driver עם הוא הולך... To somewhere. He almost laughed me off the bus. זה נושא!

But I never mixed them up after that.

Israelis know everything.
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israelmama




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 1:42 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
We have this attitude in the US as well with people who come from Spanish speaking countries. It is totally possible to get around without ever learning English but looked down upon by Americans. I’m assuming it’s similar. What’s the best way to learn Hebrew? Ulpan classes or something else?


Ulpan is definitely helpful but I've found that the best way to learn is to watch kids movies in Hebrew, and speak the language as much as you can. Sure I've sounded silly at times but most people are patient and are encouraging. Another great way to learn is to read signs on the street, at the doctor's office, etc. and try to listen to Israelis speaking with each other- you don't realize how much you can learn by observing.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 2:12 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
Thank you. One of my high school daughter's expressed worry about being looked down upon. In her words "a nerd". All of my kids are worried about learning hebrew. My kids are bright and do well in school except in hebrew language. I think it's because of the lousy way hebrew is taught in the american bais yaakov school system. My boys don't learn any practical hebrew at all.


I was pretty lousy at hebrew when I lived in the USA. I did fine. What type of schools are you looking to send to?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 2:50 pm
Teomima wrote:
Why am I reminiscing like this? Because it's really key. If you come here wanting/expecting a detached home and two minivans and an American income and cheddar cheese well yes, you can find all these things here. But it's not realistic. Come in expecting to live like Israelis: small apartment, one car if that, enough money to hopefully make ends meet but only if you live within your means, and yeah sure splurge on cheddar every now and then, but also get used to emek. And yes, Amazon and Next and iherb are great, but they're bonuses. Chuparim, as we'd say. Make sure you can make do with Rami Levy, Max Stock, Fox and Fox Home (but feel free to enjoy Ikea!) And of course, learn (and use!) Hebrew!
Teomima, I have to say that I both agree and disagree with you. Of course it not great to expect things that you are not sure will happen, but that being said what you describe as "living like an israeli" is not how many many israelis are living today.
It depends on the community you live in.
And I dont mean just rich people either. There are so many communities, not olim, where people are living in larger apartment, have more than one car and eat all the cheese they want.
I just dont want people to think that small apartments and being frugal is how every israeli lives because it is very much not the case.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:34 pm
Ora in town wrote:
I was in an intensive ulpan-avoda for 6 weeks in a kibbutz, worked in the children's house, the children made fun of me and I had no authority over them, but I learned really well with them...
So I think: The best, best way is learning from children...
I had an excellent 4-year old hebrew teacher...

Yes totally agree with this! Learning from kids is the best. They have a limited vocabulary, for one. But mostly, they're happy to say the same thing up to 100 times (whether or not you asked them to repeat themselves...), and genuinely happy to have someone to talk to, even if all you are saying to each other is "where is truck? here is truck! where is cloud? here is cloud!"
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:39 pm
SacN wrote:
Quote:
Israelis are really helpful in explaining and correcting...


Hilarious. I still remember the first time I asked a bus driver עם הוא הולך... To somewhere. He almost laughed me off the bus. זה נושא!

But I never mixed them up after that.

Israelis know everything.


Reminds me of a recent one- I mix up 'loan' (הלוואה) and 'funeral' (הלויה) all the time and went to the bank clerk and asked him if I could speak with him about my funeral...!! He was both alarmed and amused!

I agree that learning from kids is great. Totally non judgmental feedback. My husband just stopped speaking English to me after we got married and never looked back! We had a very quiet shana rishona, though...
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:40 pm
Other than that

- find people you can speak the language with. Whether it's a relative, or a paid tutor, or a friend, whoever. As long as they are patient and available to practice regularly, and you feel comfortable making mistakes around them.

- daily learning. Pick something you're struggling with and practice every day. Make the practice something that's small enough that you really will do it every day, but big enough that you'll notice that you're making progress. Eg learn 5 new words a day (there are free flashcard programs you can download to your phone), or watch videos in Hebrew for 10 minutes every evening.

- talk to yourself in Hebrew. It's an easy way to find the weak spots - the words you don't know, the grammar you're not sure about.

- find things you enjoy in Hebrew. Facebook groups funny enough that it's worth making the effort to read the posts. TV shows, songs, newspaper columnists - anything in Hebrew that's technically practice, but doesn't feel like work.
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amother




Orchid
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:43 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
I was pretty lousy at hebrew when I lived in the USA. I did fine. What type of schools are you looking to send to?


I haven't looked into anything yet. Right now my kids are in the most open/to the left schools in my neighborhood that are still considered right wing.
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:45 pm
[double post

Last edited by Rappel on Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:46 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Yes totally agree with this! Learning from kids is the best. They have a limited vocabulary, for one. But mostly, they're happy to say the same thing up to 100 times (whether or not you asked them to repeat themselves...), and genuinely happy to have someone to talk to, even if all you are saying to each other is "where is truck? here is truck! where is cloud? here is cloud!"


True. I started off by doing sheirut Leumi in an school for autistic kids, and reading the same children's book 50 times in a row taught me a lot of vocabulary!
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amother




Pewter
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:46 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Teomima, I have to say that I both agree and disagree with you. Of course it not great to expect things that you are not sure will happen, but that being said what you describe as "living like an israeli" is not how many many israelis are living today.
It depends on the community you live in.
And I dont mean just rich people either. There are so many communities, not olim, where people are living in larger apartment, have more than one car and eat all the cheese they want.
I just dont want people to think that small apartments and being frugal is how every israeli lives because it is very much not the case.


This. I live in a standard city in Israel (not an expensive city) and everyone I know has at least one car per family. At least half the people I know have two cars per family.

Also the moment you move out of the Jerusalem/Tel Aviv/Gush Dan area, apartments are bigger and houses more common.
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:52 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Other than that

- find people you can speak the language with. Whether it's a relative, or a paid tutor, or a friend, whoever. As long as they are patient and available to practice regularly, and you feel comfortable making mistakes around them.

- daily learning. Pick something you're struggling with and practice every day. Make the practice something that's small enough that you really will do it every day, but big enough that you'll notice that you're making progress. Eg learn 5 new words a day (there are free flashcard programs you can download to your phone), or watch videos in Hebrew for 10 minutes every evening.

- talk to yourself in Hebrew. It's an easy way to find the weak spots - the words you don't know, the grammar you're not sure about.

- find things you enjoy in Hebrew. Facebook groups funny enough that it's worth making the effort to read the posts. TV shows, songs, newspaper columnists - anything in Hebrew that's technically practice, but doesn't feel like work.


Can you suggest some shows that might be available on YouTube? Soap operas are good because the over acting helps to understand.
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 3:58 pm
avrahamama wrote:
Can you suggest some shows that might be available on YouTube? Soap operas are good because the over acting helps to understand.


The first two episodes of Shababnikim שבאבניקים are on YouTube. It's really funny!

If you're looking for kids songs - הופ! makes a lot of good ones, and they're all available on YouTube.
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amother




Pewter
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 4:13 pm
Teomima wrote:

Why am I reminiscing like this? Because it's really key. If you come here wanting/expecting a detached home and two minivans and an American income and cheddar cheese well yes, you can find all these things here. But it's not realistic. Come in expecting to live like Israelis: small apartment, one car if that, enough money to hopefully make ends meet but only if you live within your means, and yeah sure splurge on cheddar every now and then, but also get used to emek. And yes, Amazon and Next and iherb are great, but they're bonuses. Chuparim, as we'd say. Make sure you can make do with Rami Levy, Max Stock, Fox and Fox Home (but feel free to enjoy Ikea!) And of course, learn (and use!) Hebrew!


I looked it up, because the one car thing bothered me. The only statistic I could find was from 2010, which is a full 10 yrs ago.
Even then, 62% of homes in Israel had at least one car. And this was TEN years ago. I'm sure the number has jumped to 70% if not 80% by now. And back then, a decade ago, 16% had two cars in the cities, and 46% of those living in yeshuvim had two cars. I can't emphasize enough that this was a decade ago- anyone living in Israel can attest that in terms of development, a decade is a long time in Israel.

ל פי הלשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה נכון לשנת 2010 ב-62% ממשקי הבית בישראל (2.18 מיליון משקי בית) יש לפחות רכב פרטי אחד. בחלוקה לעשירוני הכנסה, בעוד בעשירון התחתון 23% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים לפחות מכונית אחת, החל מהחציון (כלומר בעשירון השישי ומעלה) ל-70% ממשקי הבית יש מכונית פרטית אחת לפחות, ובעשירון העשירי, ל-93% ממשקי הבית יש מכונית אחת לפחות. בעשירון הנמוך 2.3% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים 2 מכוניות או יותר, ונתון זה נשאר פחות מ-10% בקרב 40% ממשקי הבית. בעשירונים ה-9 ובעשירון ה-10 40% ו-49% בהתאמה, ממשקי הבית מחזיקים 2 מכוניות או יותר. [4]

נכון ל-2009, בישובים עירוניים 16% מהמשפחות מחזיקות ברשותן 2 מכוניות או יותר. (לדוגמה 10% בירושלים, 14% בתל אביב ו-16% בחיפה), לעומת זאת בישובים קטנים 46% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים שתי מכוניות. [5] בשנת 2010 אחוז משקי הבית שיש להם 2 מכוניות או יותר 19%. [4]

As for Amazon and Next - right now we don't have Amazon as they aren't delivering due to corona. But online delivery from Next and Asos and the like? I think Israel is one of their biggest customers. Everyone I know orders all the time. It's huge here.
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Teomima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 4:34 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I looked it up, because the one car thing bothered me. The only statistic I could find was from 2010, which is a full 10 yrs ago.
Even then, 62% of homes in Israel had at least one car. And this was TEN years ago. I'm sure the number has jumped to 70% if not 80% by now. And back then, a decade ago, 16% had two cars in the cities, and 46% of those living in yeshuvim had two cars. I can't emphasize enough that this was a decade ago- anyone living in Israel can attest that in terms of development, a decade is a long time in Israel.

ל פי הלשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה נכון לשנת 2010 ב-62% ממשקי הבית בישראל (2.18 מיליון משקי בית) יש לפחות רכב פרטי אחד. בחלוקה לעשירוני הכנסה, בעוד בעשירון התחתון 23% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים לפחות מכונית אחת, החל מהחציון (כלומר בעשירון השישי ומעלה) ל-70% ממשקי הבית יש מכונית פרטית אחת לפחות, ובעשירון העשירי, ל-93% ממשקי הבית יש מכונית אחת לפחות. בעשירון הנמוך 2.3% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים 2 מכוניות או יותר, ונתון זה נשאר פחות מ-10% בקרב 40% ממשקי הבית. בעשירונים ה-9 ובעשירון ה-10 40% ו-49% בהתאמה, ממשקי הבית מחזיקים 2 מכוניות או יותר. [4]

נכון ל-2009, בישובים עירוניים 16% מהמשפחות מחזיקות ברשותן 2 מכוניות או יותר. (לדוגמה 10% בירושלים, 14% בתל אביב ו-16% בחיפה), לעומת זאת בישובים קטנים 46% ממשקי הבית מחזיקים שתי מכוניות. [5] בשנת 2010 אחוז משקי הבית שיש להם 2 מכוניות או יותר 19%. [4]

As for Amazon and Next - right now we don't have Amazon as they aren't delivering due to corona. But online delivery from Next and Asos and the like? I think Israel is one of their biggest customers. Everyone I know orders all the time. It's huge here.

That's surprising to me, I know far more families that have no car than I do that have two. But then again, I live in Jerusalem, and have for many years, so that could skew my perspective.

As for the delivery options, I know people use them here, I do myself all the time! I never said not to. What I said was to make sure you can do without them. So say someone moved here when Amazon still had free delivery and became accustomed to expecting access to the same products they bought before making Aliyah. Then they're suddenly cut off from that resource when Amazon stopped free shipping. You don't want that to be an issue in your ability to acclimate to life in Israel. Be sure you view access to these resources as bonuses and not take them for granted, leaving you lost in the dust should they suddenly end.
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amother




Pewter
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 4:39 pm
Teomima wrote:
That's surprising to me, I know far more families that have no car than I do that have two. But then again, I live in Jerusalem, and have for many years, so that could skew my perspective.

As for the delivery options, I know people use them here, I do myself all the time! I never said not to. What I said was to make sure you can do without them. So say someone moved here when Amazon still had free delivery and became accustomed to expecting access to the same products they bought before making Aliyah. Then they're suddenly cut off from that resource when Amazon stopped free shipping. You don't want that to be an issue in your ability to acclimate to life in Israel. Be sure you view access to these resources as bonuses and not take them for granted, leaving you lost in the dust should they suddenly end.


Jerusalem is one of the poorest cities in Israel (maybe after Bnei Brak) - so I'm assuming that affects car ownership rates. Plus it's a city, so people need cars less than they do in yeshuvim.

I agree that one should view online deliveries as pluses and not as mandatory, especially in these corona times where international everything has been cut down. But Israelis have become as dependent on this as anyone. Not so much on Amazon - they only had free shipping here for a very brief time - but on other sites.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 4:47 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Other than that

- find people you can speak the language with. Whether it's a relative, or a paid tutor, or a friend, whoever. As long as they are patient and available to practice regularly, and you feel comfortable making mistakes around them.

- daily learning. Pick something you're struggling with and practice every day. Make the practice something that's small enough that you really will do it every day, but big enough that you'll notice that you're making progress. Eg learn 5 new words a day (there are free flashcard programs you can download to your phone), or watch videos in Hebrew for 10 minutes every evening.

- talk to yourself in Hebrew. It's an easy way to find the weak spots - the words you don't know, the grammar you're not sure about.

- find things you enjoy in Hebrew. Facebook groups funny enough that it's worth making the effort to read the posts. TV shows, songs, newspaper columnists - anything in Hebrew that's technically practice, but doesn't feel like work.

thinkin/talking to oneself in the new language is indeed an important one... I find myself doing it quite early on in language learning... and it really is useful, because it trains the synapses to find the words... or so...

I also agree on the phone flash cards... in this realm, smartphones are really useful... they can sound a reminder 3 times a day for a 1 minute repetition - that's the sures way to learn... because we have to forget most words 3-4 times before we remember them...
so those electronic flashcards - if you know the answer, they will ask again in one day, one week, one month, if you don't know the answer the word will come up in the next quiz, etc...

And also watching movies or so with subtitles (either hebrew or english) can help a lot... and in Israeli TV there are subtitles, at least in hebrew, almost everywhere...

It should not feel to hard... it should be relaxed, so watching the same sketch/newscast/docu a few times over is very usefull... also watching a movie you know in hebrew... It's all about repetition and frequency, not effort...
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Teomima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 4:48 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Teomima, I have to say that I both agree and disagree with you. Of course it not great to expect things that you are not sure will happen, but that being said what you describe as "living like an israeli" is not how many many israelis are living today.
It depends on the community you live in.
And I dont mean just rich people either. There are so many communities, not olim, where people are living in larger apartment, have more than one car and eat all the cheese they want.
I just dont want people to think that small apartments and being frugal is how every israeli lives because it is very much not the case.

(In response to the bolded above:) Of course a lot of people have that lifestyle! It's one of the amazing things about Israel, you have everything from the sunny beaches to the scorching desert to the green mountain rivers, all within a three hour drive from one another. Likewise you have people living all sorts of lifestyles: families with ten kids in four bedrooms, families with ten bedrooms and four kids. I'm not saying you can't find your dream home and dream car(s)! This thread is about realistic Aliyah and I think to be successful at Aliyah you have to know you might be living a very different lifestyle from that you're accustomed to. You have to be prepared for that potential reality. I'm in no way saying that will be your reality, but if someone comes and gets that detached home with a yard then loses their job and can't afford it, you don't want that to be a reason for Aliyah to have been unsuccessful. You just want to be prepared that life might take you in a different direction.
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