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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:05 pm
Ora in town wrote:
Considerably less... the USA hast 2/3 the population of the whole European Union...
1) non-citizens are not automaticall illegal aliens... there are legal aliens and illegal aliens, the schools accept both... the percentage of foreigners living in my country is much higher than in the USA.

2) Children not speaking the local language get free tutoring and integration classes, so that they learn it in about 2 years... preschool/kindergarten has become mandatory in some regions, so that children form immigrant families can learn the language before school age and start out at the same level as the other children...As I said: Universities are paid almost entirely by the taxpayers, the students pay a nominal tuition fee, and some of the universities are listed among the best in the world. All paid by taxpayers, not be students.

Yes. As I said not all non-citizens are illegal aliens, there are also legal aliens and that's the majority. (Why do you keep conflating non-citizens and ILLEGAL aliens? is this also a right-wing shtick at your place?)
Children in school get the remedial lessons they need, there are OT and PT and school psychologists... the idea is early intervention: identify problems early, treat them early, this will give the best results...

I get the impression that the USA do not allocate their funds very wisely.

Not in the (broken) education system, nor in the health care system.

The USA have the most expensive health care system per capita in the world... and yet people die because they cannot get treatment! How can that be?

The US combine the disadvatanges of both systems: no universal coverage, but yet the most expensive system.

How do you do it????

We have legal immigrants and illegal aliens, we are required to accept the illegal aliens to the schools even if they didnt come to our country legally. They do tend to overcrowd our public schools and hold other students back because of language issues. How does your country deal with that or other disciplinary problems that may arise?

But it seems like you are talking about several countries combined as the European Union and citizens from one country can move to another one without applying for citizenship, is that correct? Because that would be more of the equivalent of citizens from one state moving to another state, not foreigners coming to America without permission. And if that is the case then we are talking apples to oranges and therefore not comparable.

Btw, how much taxes do you pay if you are subsidizing healthcare, public school, colleges, and all other services? Do you have pay a European Union tax (which would be equivalent to a federal tax as opposed to state taxes) as well as your own country tax (which would be a state tax)? And how do you afford to live a Jewish lifestyle with kosher food and private school for your kids?
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:06 pm
I am happy that I convinced you that your country is not as broken as the person who opened this thread stated, and that every country has plusses and minuses...

That's exactly what I wanted you to understand: don't over-dramatise... life goes on. Covid is hard on everybody...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:12 pm
monkeymamma wrote:
We have legal immigrants and illegal aliens, we are required to accept the illegal aliens to the schools even if they didnt come to our country legally. They do tend to overcrowd our public schools and hold other students back because of language issues. How does your country deal with that or other disciplinary problems that may arise?

What do you care about the problems in your public school system?

You cash in your vouchers to send your children to private schools!

We have more immigrants who don't speak the language than you, in percentage, we provide them with services, because to us it's important that they get a good education and will able to lead productive lives later on.

And by the way, the immigrants you are denigrating here, the Mexicans and central americans and south americans who come to the USA: I met them, when they went back to learn their native language in Spain, and they were charming young students...

There is no reason to denigrate them as you do here...

it's also not very logical for you to do this... because your grandparents or great-grandparents also were immigrants once...
So you want to come in, and close the gates after you? That's hypocrisy...

monkeymamma wrote:
But it seems like you are talking about several countries combined as the European Union and citizens from one country can move to another one without applying for citizenship, is that correct? Because that would be more of the equivalent of citizens from one state moving to another state, not foreigners coming to America without permission. And if that is the case then we are talking apples to oranges and therefore not comparable.


The difference is that every country speaks a different language, some countries speak more than one language, so you should compare the immigrants to immigrants, even if they have free access through the EU...

And you don't know your own system in your own country. You can live in the USA with a green card, without applying for citizenship.

The USA are extremely selective how they distribute their greencards..
And, by the way, those who bring in the illegal aliens and give them work are the Republican voters.
Where is your nanny or cleaning lady from? Is she a legal resident? Most people employ illegal aliens as family help. Peasants employ illegal aliens for their harvest. Shops as shop assistants, constructors as menial workers, care homes as staff, etc. etc... that's also a blatant hypocrisy...


monkeymamma wrote:
Btw, how much taxes do you pay if you are subsidizing healthcare, public school, colleges, and all other services?

Some countries more than you, some countries less than you...
You spend most in the world per capita for your broken health care system... more than any country in the world... and still people die because they can't afford health care..

monkeymamma wrote:
Do you have pay a European Union tax (which would be equivalent to a federal tax as opposed to state taxes) as well as your own country tax (which would be a state tax)?

Yes, there is a EU tax, the EU charges it as part of VAT, and country tax and the equivalent of state tax and the equivalent of muncipal tax... some countries are more centralised, some more federal in structure...

monkeymamma wrote:
And how do you afford to live a Jewish lifestyle with kosher food and private school for your kids?


It's expensive,but people manage somehow, just like you, with fundraiser for the schools, and stipends for poorer families, etc...


Last edited by Ora in town on Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:15 pm
Ora in town wrote:
I am happy that I convinced you that your country is not as broken as the person who opened this thread stated, and that every country has plusses and minuses...

That's exactly what I wanted you to understand: don't over-dramatise... life goes on. Covid is hard on everybody...

There are many problems that we are currently facing, its not black and white and it might not be every state that is struggling but Jews do live predominately in the states that are struggling like New York, California, Florida, etc.
Take NY for example, we are having high shootings right now and fireworks every night but the mayor refuses to do anything and is now talking about defunding the police. Its very scary and that is on top of everything that happened in NY during the height of coronavirus and protests/riots. So it may not be all bad but its not all good either and there are many things that could be done to fix it thus the thread. I am grateful that someone started this thread but apparently it wasnt meant for someone who lives in the European Union where everything is wonderful and everything iw available to citizens and anyone who wants to come there legally or illegally. I guess American Jews should just emigrate to your country to get all the wonderful services Jews can get in your country. Is that right?
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:18 pm
Ora in town wrote:

You cash in your vouchers to send your children to private schools!


What vouchers are you talking about?
Only a handful of states offer vouchers (that I'm aware of) and only in very poorly performing districts.

In NJ, we get secular textbooks, lunches, bussing, and specific special education assistance from the state and federal government.
And we get more than other states probably because of such a large Orthodox Jewish community and lobbying efforts.
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:25 pm
Ora in town wrote:
What do you care about the problems in your public school system?

You cash in your vouchers to send your children to private schools!

We have more immigrants who don't speak the language than you, in percentage, we provide them with services, because to us it's important that they get a good education and will able to lead productive lives later on.

And by the way, the immigrants you are denigrating here, the Mexicans and central americans and south americans who come to the USA: I met them, when they went back to learn their native language in Spain, and they were charming young students...

There is no reason to denigrate them as you do here...

it's also not very logical for you to do this... because your grandparents or great-grandparents also were immigrants once...

So you want to come in, and close the gates after you? That's hypocrisy...

No one is denigrating anyone, everyone is welcome to come legally which is what you seem to have trouble understanding. And illegal aliens could be from anywhere not just Mexico or other South American countries (I would go as far as to tell you that making the claim that illegal aliens are only Latino is racist as there are many Latino's who came to America legally so stop distorting it) just stating facts which is still allowed regardless of the names you want to call us.

And I am a taxpayer therefore I care about the problems in the public schools. I have no interest in paying for failing schools nor should any taxpayer pay for it. So give us the secret to your excellent public schools and how you can afford to educate all of your kids as well as all the foreign kids that come to your country as well and still have excellent schools. And how do you deal with disciplinary problems that may come up?

And you still havent answered my questions so I will ask them again:how much taxes do you pay if you are subsidizing healthcare, public school, colleges, and all other services? Do you have pay a European Union tax (which would be equivalent to a federal tax as opposed to state taxes) as well as your own country tax (which would be a state tax)? And how do you afford to live a Jewish lifestyle with kosher food and private school for your kids?

ETA: I see that you edited your answer and answered some of the questions upthread.
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 7:52 pm
Ora in town wrote:
The USA are extremely selective how they distribute their greencards..
And, by the way, those who bring in the illegal aliens and give them work are the Republican voters.
Where is your nanny or cleaning lady from? Is she a legal resident? Most people employ illegal aliens as family help. Peasants employ illegal aliens for their harvest. Shops as shop assistants, constructors as menial workers, care homes as staff, etc. etc... that's also a blatant hypocrisy..

The U.S. has a right to be selective about their greencards but we also give out many work and school visas as well so foreigners can go to school and work legally in America.
But where do you get that republicans are the ones hiring illegal aliens? Its the democrat run states that are "sanctuary cities" where illegal aliens can get benefits like free college, free healthcare, jobs, driver licenses, etc. And while I dont personally employ any cleaning ladies or nannies (legal or illegal) there are many people who do employ illegal aliens but that only tells you that these illegal aliens are not paying taxes but still get to send their kids to public schools and/or get other govt benefits for free. And many people want that stopped especially now with the pandemic and millions of citizens out of work so we need jobs for our own citizens. I dont blame them one bit. Why should citizens not get priority when it comes to college or jobs?
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:09 pm
keym wrote:
What vouchers are you talking about?
Only a handful of states offer vouchers (that I'm aware of) and only in very poorly performing districts.


In NJ, we get secular textbooks, lunches, bussing, and specific special education assistance from the state and federal government.
And we get more than other states probably because of such a large Orthodox Jewish community and lobbying efforts.

Oh, I didn't know that...
I thought people voted Trump or De Vos because they were hoping for better financing of private schools with public funds...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:14 pm
monkeymamma wrote:
The U.S. has a right to be selective about their greencards but we also give out many work and school visas as well so foreigners can go to school and work legally in America.
But where do you get that republicans are the ones hiring illegal aliens? Its the democrat run states that are "sanctuary cities" where illegal aliens can get benefits like free college, free healthcare, jobs, driver licenses, etc. And while I dont personally employ any cleaning ladies or nannies (legal or illegal) there are many people who do employ illegal aliens but that only tells you that these illegal aliens are not paying taxes but still get to send their kids to public schools and/or get other govt benefits for free. And many people want that stopped especially now with the pandemic and millions of citizens out of work so we need jobs for our own citizens. I dont blame them one bit. Why should citizens not get priority when it comes to college or jobs?


Look, that's not a specificity of the USA.

Everwhere in the world, the right-wing parties shout against foreigners and the very voters for those conservative parties bring the foreigners in, legally or illegally, and employ them, because they need cheap and disenfranchised labour...

In my view, that's pure hypocrisy.

If you (plural, not you personally) shout against illegal aliens, don't employ them.
If you shout against immigrants, don't employ them, and they won't come...

If you tell them to come, treat them like human beings, give them the same rights, pay them properly, and don't shout against their presence in your country...

That said, most illegal immigrants are earning so meager a wage that they would not have to pay taxes anyway... so the employers are really the ones who are benefiting from the system on the expense of the others...


Last edited by Ora in town on Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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servewithjoy




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:14 pm
Yes you are right B"H to live in a medinat chesed!
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:14 pm
Ora in town wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that...
I thought people voted Trump or De Vos because they were hoping for better financing of private schools with public funds...


Well yeah that's always a hope.
But that money has yet to materialize.
And it's not a reason to vote for them. More like a prayer.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 8:56 pm
Ora in town wrote:
Why?

Aren't you the ones who claim that the USA are "the greates country on earth"?

If you are the greatest country on earth, you should be number one in all disciplines...

but you are not.

You are mediocre in life expectancy.
You are mediocre in infant mortality.
You are mediocre in crime rate.
You are mediocre in homicide rate.
You are mediocre in firearms fatalities.
You are medicore in PISA (education system comparison)
You are not bad, but not brilliant either in GDP per capita...

You are the best only in Covid fatalities...
And military spending...
And most expensive (but not best) healthcare system...

So we're back to this old chestnut, are we?

I understand that many countries and cultures find American hyper-patriotism obnoxious. There are even times when Americans find it obnoxious.

But here's the thing: every country and every culture has characteristics, ideas, or habits that others find obnoxious. Complaining about Americans' penchant for hyper-patriotism doesn't make anyone look more cosmopolitan and urbane; it just looks like a lack of self-awareness.

Every country has its shtick. When I do work for a Québécois company, I know I'm going to have look up the required difference in font sizes for French and English on a document or report and make sure I have the right French translation. Seems silly. Does it really matter whether the French is in 12-point and the English is in 8 point? Would anyone die if the English were in 9 point? But that's the way it is, and there's a whole history behind it.

If you're bothered by people chanting "USA" or whatever, just roll your eyes inwardly and keep in mind that they might find some of your country's practices pretty obnoxious, too.
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 29 2020, 9:17 pm
Ora in town wrote:
Look, that's not a specificity of the USA.

Everwhere in the world, the right-wing parties shout against foreigners and the very voters for those conservative parties bring the foreigners in, legally or illegally, and employ them, because they need cheap and disenfranchised labour...

In my view, that's pure hypocrisy.

If you (plural, not you personally) shout against illegal aliens, don't employ them.
If you shout against immigrants, don't employ them, and they won't come...

If you tell them to come, treat them like human beings, give them the same rights, pay them properly, and don't shout against their presence in your country...

That said, most illegal immigrants are earning so meager a wage that they would not have to pay taxes anyway... so the employers are really the ones who are benefiting from the system on the expense of the others...

Look, if its not a specificity of the USA then why are you attacking the USA?

But I would love to see your data on conservatives in the USA who hire illegal aliens. That is other than the fact that we do have non-discrimination laws that conservatives have to abide by despite complaining or they can get sued (oh the irony that someone can come to the U.S. illegally then sue you for not giving them a job or even worse, have the Attorney General of a State like the NYAG sue on your behalf) so unless you are talking about that then I doubt that conservatives will be the ones hiring illegal aliens (and I already mentioned that its the democrat led states that are "sanctuary cities" which you seem to be conveniently ignoring) but I look forward to seeing your sources.

I dont believe that paying taxes has anything to do with how low your income is. People who work at minimum wage jobs still have to pay taxes. And yes, cleaning ladies can get paid $15 (minimum wage in NY) plus food and transportation so in many cases they come home with more money than someone who works legally for the same amount without food or transportation yet the illegal alien will not pay taxes, how is that fair? Quite frankly, people may be against illegal aliens but its truly the illegal aliens who get more benefits out of being in America (especially if they have kids who can get all kinds of govt benefits despite their parents not paying taxes that many citizens cant even get because their income may be a little higher than the limit) otherwise they wouldnt be here.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 5:57 am
monkeymamma wrote:
Look, if its not a specificity of the USA then why are you attacking the USA?

But I would love to see your data on conservatives in the USA who hire illegal aliens. That is other than the fact that we do have non-discrimination laws that conservatives have to abide by despite complaining or they can get sued (oh the irony that someone can come to the U.S. illegally then sue you for not giving them a job or even worse, have the Attorney General of a State like the NYAG sue on your behalf) so unless you are talking about that then I doubt that conservatives will be the ones hiring illegal aliens (and I already mentioned that its the democrat led states that are "sanctuary cities" which you seem to be conveniently ignoring) but I look forward to seeing your sources.

I dont believe that paying taxes has anything to do with how low your income is. People who work at minimum wage jobs still have to pay taxes. And yes, cleaning ladies can get paid $15 (minimum wage in NY) plus food and transportation so in many cases they come home with more money than someone who works legally for the same amount without food or transportation yet the illegal alien will not pay taxes, how is that fair? Quite frankly, people may be against illegal aliens but its truly the illegal aliens who get more benefits out of being in America (especially if they have kids who can get all kinds of govt benefits despite their parents not paying taxes that many citizens cant even get because their income may be a little higher than the limit) otherwise they wouldnt be here.


Who hires illegal aliens?
Well, Trump, of course, for his golf resorts and others (I would imagine that he also employed illegal aliens as construction workers. For the golf courses, there is proof.)

Who hires illegal aliens?
Persons who have a business where they need menial workers: construction, agriculture, industry (cf. Rubashkin who employed illegal aliens at his meet plant), restaurants, hotels, shops, private care facilities, etc... and also private households who need help, but can't really afford it.. or are too stingy to pay appropriately, insure, etc...

What will restaurant owners, hotel owners, farmers, shop owners, industrials etc. vote in their majority?
They will vote for the party that reduces taxes and regulation. Because they would feel that the contrary would be a burden on their businesses...
What party would that be?
You guessed it: the Republican party...

They are also the ones who want to pay low wages, in order to keep costs down... and they want to import workforce that will work for cheap... they are the prime motor of immigration, in order to flood the work market with work force, to keep offer high and prices down.

Don't fall for their hypocrisy...
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exaustedmom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 7:40 am
Ora in town wrote:
Who hires illegal aliens?
Well, Trump, of course, for his golf resorts and others (I would imagine that he also employed illegal aliens as construction workers. For the golf courses, there is proof.)

Who hires illegal aliens?
Persons who have a business where they need menial workers: construction, agriculture, industry (cf. Rubashkin who employed illegal aliens at his meet plant), restaurants, hotels, shops, private care facilities, etc... and also private households who need help, but can't really afford it.. or are too stingy to pay appropriately, insure, etc...

What will restaurant owners, hotel owners, farmers, shop owners, industrials etc. vote in their majority?
They will vote for the party that reduces taxes and regulation. Because they would feel that the contrary would be a burden on their businesses...
What party would that be?
You guessed it: the Republican party...

They are also the ones who want to pay low wages, in order to keep costs down... and they want to import workforce that will work for cheap... they are the prime motor of immigration, in order to flood the work market with work force, to keep offer high and prices down.

Don't fall for their hypocrisy...


You know Ora, I read your posts in this thread and on the other one (rosenberg) and its clear that you hate and despise this beautiful country. It is in bad taste to criticize and mock someone else's country. I understand your European country is utopia and I appreciate your input, but this discussion is how to repair this country not further divide.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 8:37 am
exaustedmom wrote:
You know Ora, I read your posts in this thread and on the other one (rosenberg) and its clear that you hate and despise this beautiful country. It is in bad taste to criticize and mock someone else's country. I understand your European country is utopia and I appreciate your input, but this discussion is how to repair this country not further divide.


Yes, but it wasn't Ora who brought up illegal aliens in a derisive way. That is also not a way to repair the country.

If you want to discuss immigration (legal and illegal) as needing reform, I'm with you. And as an immigrant I actually have some experience of the issues.

But once the initial post about it is derogatory, it becomes hard to have productive conversation, as people become defensive or offensive. And that wasn't on Ora.

So given that many industries rely on undocumented workers, especially agriculture and hospitality, how do you see that working?
Not so long ago (I'll find the study when I have time), they tried to have Americans fill the agriculture positions currently filled by undocumented workers. Picking etc., backbreaking work. No one (or maybe very few, I don't remember exactly) would do it. Didn't matter how much you paid. Should the crops not get picked? Don't think that will help the economy much.

(Here's an article about it https://www.latimes.com/projec.....tion/)

You talk about bringing manufacturing jobs back. The two biggest barriers are automation - there just aren't as many jobs - and wages. How are you making overcoming those?
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exaustedmom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:29 am
simcha2 wrote:
Yes, but it wasn't Ora who brought up illegal aliens in a derisive way. That is also not a way to repair the country.

If you want to discuss immigration (legal and illegal) as needing reform, I'm with you. And as an immigrant I actually have some experience of the issues.

But once the initial post about it is derogatory, it becomes hard to have productive conversation, as people become defensive or offensive. And that wasn't on Ora.

So given that many industries rely on undocumented workers, especially agriculture and hospitality, how do you see that working?
Not so long ago (I'll find the study when I have time), they tried to have Americans fill the agriculture positions currently filled by undocumented workers. Picking etc., backbreaking work. No one (or maybe very few, I don't remember exactly) would do it. Didn't matter how much you paid. Should the crops not get picked? Don't think that will help the economy much.

(Here's an article about it https://www.latimes.com/projec.....tion/)

You talk about bringing manufacturing jobs back. The two biggest barriers are automation - there just aren't as many jobs - and wages. How are you making overcoming those?


It was really respectful and fascinating the first page or 2. Let's go back to a respectful exchange of ideas.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:31 am
exaustedmom wrote:
It was really respectful and fascinating the first page or 2. Let's go back to a respectful exchange of ideas.


Sure, how would you deal with immigration?
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monkeymamma




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:39 am
exaustedmom wrote:
You know Ora, I read your posts in this thread and on the other one (rosenberg) and its clear that you hate and despise this beautiful country. It is in bad taste to criticize and mock someone else's country. I understand your European country is utopia and I appreciate your input, but this discussion is how to repair this country not further divide.

Nah, we dont have enough frum women on this site from America who believe in abortion (my body, my choice) but not in the right to decide whether you can wear a mask (my body, my choice). These are the same frum woman who believe that the laws should be followed (in regards to masks) but dont believe that illegal aliens should follow the laws (in regards to entering the country legally). The same frum women dont like it when we differentiate between legal immigrants and illegal aliens and consider it "derisive" to state facts about illegal aliens. Btw, a quick check shows that the illegal alien who came out against Trump also admitted to buying a fake social security number to get a job but somehow the frum woman are shoving that under the rug and blaming Trump for not knowing that illegal aliens are falsifying documents (but at least they admit that we need a mandatory e-verify to ensure that all hiring is done legally). But these same frum women believe that citizens who falsify documents and do things for the benefit of their kids should be penalized but illegal aliens should be rewarded. And the same frum women dont want us to differentiate the different between peaceful protests and rioters who vandalize and loot stores and other property. The same frum women dont want Jews to go to shul or funerals but are ok with protester and rioters. The same frum women believe that protesters breaking into private property are protesting "peacefully" but citizens defending themselves with guns (as per the second amendment) are breaking the laws. And the list goes on and on and on to the point where it feels like a twilight zone Surprised Can't Believe It So what does it matter that a frum woman from Europe is now saying the same things that some frum women from America are saying?
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exaustedmom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jun 30 2020, 10:42 am
simcha2 wrote:
Sure, how would you deal with immigration?


Im not sure, hence, a "respectful exchange of ideas".
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