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Manifestation?

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amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:32 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

I have deleted the comment.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

amother

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:48 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

This is also the idea that bitachon can create your reality, as spoke about in Chovos HaLevavos and by the Rebbe multiple times.
The more you believe that something will be good, the bigger the possibility that it will be.

I’m a little confused about how this connects to bitachon. I thought if you have bitachon then you believe that hashem will take care of you in the best way possible. I was taught that hashem always knows best and something that we think is good for us really isn’t.

That’s where I’m getting a little confused.

I’m going to check out the resources mentioned and hopefully it’ll make more sense.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:54 am

There is a trend now I've seen and heard in bitachon books and shiurim that says we can harness the power of bitachon and see results. That's not my mesorah. My beliefs are in line with the song from Dov Dov and the Great Bicycle Race: It means so much/to me you see/Hashem please help me win/if it's good for me.

I don't write Hashem's scripts. (OK, I do, but the Editor-in-Chief might reject them). I think that Hashem is good and what He does is good and I will daven and hope it will be for the obvious good. And then when it happens, I am receptive to see good things however it plays out.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:07 am

I'm not aware of anyone outside of Lubavitch espousing this theory.

First, it's hard to reconcile with history. Plenty of tzaddikim have wanted things badly and not gotten them.

Second, it's hard to reconcile with traditional practice. When we want something, we daven. Moshe Rabbenu didn't visualize Miriam being cured, he prayed for it.

Third, this theory blames the victim. Anything that's wrong in your life is your fault, because you didn't wish hard enough for good.

And fourth, the idea that you can create a new reality through your mind borders on apikorsus. You're not God.

I'm all for positive thinking. I do believe that feeling positive can bring about positive results - but only through the laws of nature. For example, when you are positive, you are more relaxed, and when you are relaxed, you make better decisions.
That's not the same as manifestation. I'd stay away from that belief system.

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you! I will hunt it down.

Its an excellent book, as are the others by the same author.

giselle

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:13 am

I don’t know enough about manifestation specifically. But just based on what you wrote, I’ll just share that in my life when I learned to let go and have emuna that Hashem will provide bracha, He really did! In ways I never dreamed possible. So while it’s not exactly how you describe manifestation, perhaps it can be reconciled with the Torah/emuna in that when you let go and leave things up to Hashem, it makes way for a lot of good things. Not sure if that makes any sense...!

amother

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:26 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I’m replying to you but talking to myself because you’ve written down my exact concerns.

It’s obviously not just lubavitch because it’s known in the wider world, and some of the resources shared up thread are from non lubavitch sources. That said the lubavitch community seems to be the only one actually championing it. Id love if people could share more litvish sources

1 - part of manifestation as I understand it is that you say “this will happen, or something better.” Also “it didn’t happen yet, but that means it will happen soon” That said there were tzadikim who died childless so what you said still holds

2 - we don’t know exactly what was involved in davening back in the day. As per r aryeh Kaplan they meditated while davening. Quite possibly they incorporated visualization as well

3 - I’m wondering that too

4 - that was my original concern but posters are suggesting that the practice can be viewed as part of bitachon. As in you know it’s coming from hashem and you know He can make it happen and you’re just making room for it in your life.

There’s still a lot of aspects of this that I’m uncertain about but I’m hoping if I read enough it’ll all make sense lol

giselle

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:08 pm

I doubt you’ll find litvish sources for this line of thinking. I too come from misnagdim (with a lot of chasidus sprinkled in), and my father is a very rational logical thinker. I don’t think this aligns with very litvish haskafa.

cbsp

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:10 pm

giselle wrote:

Rabbi Viener is not chassidish. Nor, AFAIK, was Rav Dessler zatzal.

cbsp

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:12 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Very cool. I guess it’s more mainstream than I thought. I don’t think I’ve seen Torah stream before but hopefully it’s easy to figure out.

torahstream.org is the repository of all of Rabbi Viener's shiurim. If you're having trouble I can see if these shiurim are also on torahanytime.com or Kol HaLashon

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:42 pm

I didn't read all responses. But all of this has basis in the Torah.
Dina Friedman's power series program is based off this idea.
So is Rachel schaool's positive thinking classes. She was directly asked by Rebbetzin Sara Yosef to teach the contents of her book "it's all in your mind* in the US.
Rabbi yy Jacobson just had a shiur on this topic as well with sources.
I am so amazed how transformational this is, I'm considering doing a weight loss program for people with this concept because I do not believe people need to struggle the way they do to lose weight.
Or perhaps with financial as well.
However, this is a process. And you need to have patience and lots of Emuna and Bitachon.

Frumme

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:56 pm

I've heard about the concept in Judaism, OP, but whether or not it is a positive thing or not seems up for debate. From what I understand, it is situational.

For example, I was taught that you shouldn't daven for someone specific to be your bashert. "You might just get what you wish for," even if it really wasn't meant to happen. It might be that the shidduch happens, but doesn't last, for example. In contrast, davening for the "right" person would be different, since you're not being specific.

At the same time, I've definitely heard of rabbis who can't pay their shul mortgage payments and miraculously a check comes in that day that pays for that month's payment. They had faith that it would happen, so it happened.

How manifestation is different from emunah, bitachon, and hishtadlus, or how it all fits in together, is above my pay grade I'm afraid....

rgh

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 1:34 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Agreed. The simplicity of how I learned emunah, is that we believe that Hashem will do whatever is best for us. Just we don't always understand how its good.

The only question I never, ever, ever got a clear answer to is-so why do we daven, if Hashem will anyways do whats best for us?

I always get answers like davening makes you a different person, tefillah affects the upper worlds so what used to be best isn't best anymore, but.....idk.

It doesn't really resonate.

amother

Red

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 1:35 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I’ve been reading up on manifestation lately. You believe that you’re going to get something you want or need, and after you believe wholeheartedly for some time it comes to you.

I’m wondering how to view this from a torahdig perspective?

I remember reading something similar in one of the frum weeklies. It was a while ago. Someone believed that hashem would give her an extension that she couldn’t afford, and she got it a few months later in some crazy way.

But it doesn’t seem to match up with what I’ve been taught about tefillah, bitachon and that hashem sometimes says no.

I’m tempted to try it but I’m worried that it’s inappropriate. But the weekly didn’t get any bad feedback from the story.

Thoughts?

Tracht gut vet zein gut

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:00 pm

In short- it's based on a difference in opinion between chassidish and litvish sources. Chassidus teaches bitachon means you believe you will get the outcome you desire. The other opinion is that bitachon means I trust whatever Hashem does is for the good- even if its not the outcome I wanted.
So yeah- 2 schools of thought.

rgh

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:01 pm

holylandgirl wrote:

Source please?

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:26 pm

rgh wrote:

Source please?

I learnt this in a series of shiurim a while back- a study into this topic. I don't remember the sources.
It is well known in the name of lubavitch, but I remember learning it as an opinion held by chassidus at large. Either way, my point to OP was that she will hear conflicting things because it's a machlokes.

paperflowers

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:44 pm

The Alter of Navardok taught that one can have bitachon that HaShem will do something that you daven for. It’s a whole topic with certain parameters, and I’m not really an expert. But this is very different than believing that HaShem can do something but may say no. Definitely not chasidic.

imasoftov

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:46 pm

holylandgirl wrote:

Does that mean you *will* get the outcome you desire, or you should *believe* you will?

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:54 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Does that mean you *will* get the outcome you desire, or you should *believe* you will?

Good point. It's clear the lubavitch position is "think good and it will be good."
And that what I remember learning about wider chassidus.

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