Manifestation? | Imamother

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:00 pm

I listened to R Viener's point and what he's saying is slightly different. He says willpower is very strong and you can achieve something you attempt because of the willpower.

This discussion is about something different.
Manifestation says I want someone sick to get better, so they will(just the postivie energy causes it)- R Dessler is saying when I work on something, a great willpower can make it succeed. That's very different.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:05 pm

holylandgirl wrote:

Different to the point of meaningless.

Willpower is what I do for myself. If I have willpower and stick to a diet, I will lose weight. But even if I'm desperate for my obese friend to lose weight, my willpower won't help her at all.

But manifestation claims that if you want badly enough for something to happen, even when it's not in your power to change, it will happen. I don't see how that works.

amother

Jetblack

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:06 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I imagine that the Lubavitch position would have to be more nuanced than that, because it's obviously not true that thinking good makes good things happen.

Thanks. A voice of reason.
I'm not saying there can't be sources in Chabad literature, but this is deep stuff, so unless someone is proficient in the topic, and can explain it well, it just sounds silly to say "think good and it will be good."

amother

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:20 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I didn't read all responses. But all of this has basis in the Torah.
Dina Friedman's power series program is based off this idea.
So is Rachel schaool's positive thinking classes. She was directly asked by Rebbetzin Sara Yosef to teach the contents of her book "it's all in your mind* in the US.
Rabbi yy Jacobson just had a shiur on this topic as well with sources.
I am so amazed how transformational this is, I'm considering doing a weight loss program for people with this concept because I do not believe people need to struggle the way they do to lose weight.
Or perhaps with financial as well.
However, this is a process. And you need to have patience and lots of Emuna and Bitachon.

What was the name of R' Jacobson's shiur and do you know where I can find it?

amother

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:23 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

It's obviously a lot more involved than that. I think we all know people who just assume that everything will always go their way and are shocked when life/Hashem shows them otherwise. This is more like realizing all that's involved in this thing happening and still believing Hashem has power and it'll happen.

I still have a lot of questions though ... please keep the sources/explanations coming

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:37 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Exactly- you said it better than me thanks. Willpower is what rabbi viener was talking about- not manifestation.

amother

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:04 pm

cbsp wrote:

torahstream.org is the repository of all of Rabbi Viener's shiurim. If you're having trouble I can see if these shiurim are also on torahanytime.com or Kol HaLashon

Thank you that site is fantastic! Love that there’s no login.

I need to finish listening when I don’t have kids jumping on me but it sounds like he’s addressing this exactly which is amazing.

I see others in the thread are confusing ratzon with willpower - my understanding is that this is just an English word for ration and isn’t the willpower frog and toad we’re using when they didn’t want to eat cookies

Edit sorry autocorrect

holylandgirl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:15 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What we are saying is that Rabbi Viener is talking about the power of ratzon to succeed in something you are working on, (as in the case of the dor haplagah.)

What he is not saying is that your ratzon can create outcomes outside of your efforts. As someone said above- an example of this would be your ratzon causing someone else to lose weight.

I don't think there's any confusion with terminology.

sushilover

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:43 pm

Manifestation, or the law of attraction, works in theory. Yes, when you focus on the positive, you are more likely to see success. When you visualize a good outcome, you increase the chances that it will occur.

It gets dangerous, when you turn it into a belief that your thoughts have full control over the outcome. In real life, this becomes cultish and I have seen people fall into the habit of blaming others for their poor outcomes because "they didn't believe in it enough." The founders of the Law of Attraction and authors of The Secret seem to discourage going for help for past trauma, as thinking about negativity will only bring more negativity. Rhonda Byrne from The Secret even says that listening to other people talk about their illness will bring their illness to you.
That obviously goes against everything I believe in.

There are quite a number of frum speakers and life coaches who have started espousing this theory, and I feel really uncomfortable with it. Their audiences certainly do come away with the feeling that anything bad in their life is a result of their own negative thinking. ("As a teen, I used to worry about being an older single, and that's why I am not married now.") There are even two popular therapists who performs hypnosis to determine what parts of your life are a result of your negative manifestation and what aspects were predetermined by Hashem before your were born. That seems dangerously close to avoda zora.

If you want to learn about bringing positivity to your life, learn emunah; we have 3,000+ years of wisdom about this topic. I don't understand why people have to turn to new age terms and theories for a concept that is integral to our religion. Maybe it's because emunah is a more complex idea than just "if you believe good will happen, then the universe will give it to you."

For example, tracht gut vet zein gut isn't a simplistic catchphrase. It means that good things will come when you are positive, and even if it wasn't what you envisioned, it is still good because it is from Hashem. It means that happiness is often a prerequisite for Kedusha (for example, Yaakov lost his nevuah while he was mourning the 'death' of Yosef). It means that being happy is a tremendous mitzvah, and the schar for this mitzvah is incomprehensible.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:46 pm

rgh wrote:

Agreed. The simplicity of how I learned emunah, is that we believe that Hashem will do whatever is best for us. Just we don't always understand how its good.

The only question I never, ever, ever got a clear answer to is-so why do we daven, if Hashem will anyways do whats best for us?

I always get answers like davening makes you a different person, tefillah affects the upper worlds so what used to be best isn't best anymore, but.....idk.

It doesn't really resonate.

For connection to Hashem. To thank Him. To daven for others and accrue zechuyos for them.
Situations can change. We don't believe in predestination but we do believe that Hashem knows what He's doing and we are doing all we are supposed to by following the traditional channels. Chas v'shalom I should call this new age, especially with all the people behind this. But we don't have to feel FOMO, that we're not doing all we can, if we have a different approach.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:48 pm

holylandgirl wrote:

Can you tell us the name of this shiur? thanks!

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:50 pm

sushilover wrote:

Do they realize how new agey and treife this is? Of course I'm not talking of sourcing from Rav Dessler (which I'd like to look into, anyone have the exact place?).