AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests

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banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:54 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

IF the test becomes available to women, ALL women will be able to sit for them, including you.
There won't be a sign on the front door saying 'Only Rabid Feminists With an Agenda Allowed In'.

And you know what, many things and changes were initiated by 'feminists with an agenda'. The right to vote. The right to own property. The right to equal pay. The right to not get fired when you get pregnant. The right to say no to s@x, even if it's your own husband (yes, once upon a time marital rape was not a crime). Lots of people opposed these things, because 'feminists with an agenda' were pushing them. But bottom line, decades later, all women enjoy these rights.

I am sure that a lot of women who right now are opposing this because it seems so 'fringe' and feminist, will come around in a few years, and be proud if their daughters or granddaughters go this route.

I don't think you can compare today's feminists, who walk around with genital hats kvetching that their preferred candidate lost the electoral college, or who think it's okay to shove pieces of sifrei Torah into their underwear, to the feminists who fought for equal pay and the right to vote.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:01 pm

banana123 wrote:

2) I'm asking what any woman with yirat Shamayim gains from this. She's not going to gain recognition in her community that she doesn't already have. She's not going to gain stature in her community that she doesn't already have. She's not going to gain a salary bump for many more years than it'd take her to do an MA and PhD. What DOES she gain?

She gains - if she tests quietly and doesn't tell people - personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. Okay, so is that worth it? Depends on what else she has on her plate and wants to accomplish, I guess.

The only ones who have something *other* than a personal sense of accomplishment that they don't tell anyone about, are the women who don't have yirat Shamayim in the first place. Meaning, they've tested, that's great, but we don't know if they have any real understanding of what they learned or any yirat Shamayim whatsoever. So it is all about externals: stature, making noise, a political agenda, an ego trip.

.

For the millionth time, she gains an increase in salary. If she is already studying the same material that is covered in the exam, for a few years, why shouldn't she be able to get the increase in salary without doing an MA? Not everyone wants to do an MA. And an MA is an entirely different system, with entirely different requirements, including writing academic papers and very often, a thesis. To say nothing of the requirements of a PhD.

And why do you say that passing this exam won't give a Yirat Shamayim woman stature in a Yirat Shamayim community? I assure you there are many such Orthodox communities that would respect a woman who had passed these exams, and perhaps also offer her leadership roles because of it.

In any case, I'm guessing people who write these exams (men or women) do it both from Yirat Shamayim and for personal gain.

If pure 100% Yirat Shamayim with no other motive at all (money, profession, stature) is your requirement for sitting these exams, then that disqualifies most of the men as well.
Or are men allowed to have ego, stature, money, profession, and women are 'above' (or below?) all that?

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:06 pm

banana123 wrote:

Today's feminists are as not a homogeneous group, you know. Just like black people are not one homogeneous group. Just like Orthodox people are not one group.

There are many different types of feminists. I am a very proud feminist and I am appalled at your second example (when did that happen? What are you talking about?). Many groups of feminists disagree with one another about many different issues.

In any case, you better believe that at the time, people were as repulsed by the feminists who wanted the vote as people are today by feminists wearing 'genital hats'.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:14 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

For the millionth time, it would take her a loong time to gain an increase in salary. Much longer than it would take her to get an MA. Testing on one topic is not going to get her a salary raise. If she's already learning all the material, cool. I doubt anyone is learning all the material, for all 12(?) tests, just stam. Men don't do it stam, either. But basically, what you are saying is that a woman who cannot do a PhD should test for the rabbanut instead, because it's easier. No?

Uh. Because if she is that knowledgeable and has yirat Shamayim, a community with yirat Shamayim has already noted both those things and she probably has some degree of stature and recognition in that community. Taking the test and then announcing it isn't going to gain her anything, because she doesn't need the test to gain what is rightfully hers.

I don't know who writes these tests, nor do I think that's relevant to the discussion.

Yes, for most of the men taking these tests it's not just about yirat Shamayim, it's for other reasons as well. Most of them are not receiving recognition for it, nor do they use it in their profession (there aren't enough spots), nor does it provide them with stature (unless he's feels a need to demand respect due to the tests, in which case he's got other issues). Maybe it gives money, but not for the majority of people testing. So, your point again is what, exactly?

My opinion of the men who test and don't understand or have yirat Shamayim is the same as my opinion of women who want to test and don't understand or have yirat Shamayim. You're not going to catch me on this, I'm pretty consistent and my issue here is not with women testing (as I've said several times before) but with the core agenda.

Let the women test, it may even further some of the changes I'd like to see.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:17 pm

malki2 wrote:

Please take note that I am following but not commenting. I don’t need to be the big mouth who spews her opinion on every controversial matter. I am happy for you that things are going your way here.🙂

That being said. I will make one small comment. If the title of this thread was “Chief Rabbis rule that women can take rabbanut tests” that would be one thing. But here, the Attorney General is ruling on Torah matters??? Isn’t something wrong with this picture?

Huh???

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:20 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Achla. I don't feel like arguing about feminists today. Candace Owens is pretty good at summing up the issues with today's feminists, you're welcome to listen to some of what she says. I'm sure she'll be happy to argue with you.

Yes, I'm sure they were appalled. I don't think you can compare the examples I gave (and I have many more) to what's happening today. But I also don't see a reason to argue with someone who can't even post under her own name.

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:36 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Huh???

Just a friendly post. No hidden meanings.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:39 pm

malki2 wrote:

Just a friendly post. No hidden meanings.

You wrote "I don’t need to be the big mouth who spews her opinion on every controversial matter. "

What did you mean there?

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:52 pm

banana123 wrote:

It's your prerogative not to argue with an anonymous poster (just like it's mine to stay anonymous).

And you'll forgive me if I don't need Candace Owens to explain feminism to me. I highly doubt she is an expert on Orthodox Jewish feminism in Israel.

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:53 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You wrote "I don’t need to be the big mouth who spews her opinion on every controversial matter. "

What did you mean there?

Just that I may not necessarily have been in your camp on this issue, but I don’t always need to get involved in every argument here, and I wanted you personally to take note of that because I think that you felt like I got on your case last week. 🙂

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:58 pm

malki2 wrote:

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:59 pm

banana123 wrote:

I didn't say a woman who can't do a PhD should test for the rabbanut instead, because it's easier. (Although it probably is much easier, as are other smicha tests from other rabbinical schools. And as far as I know, nobody at all suggests that passing the smicha tests should be equivalent to attaining a PhD when it comes to salary. I believe it's equivalent to a B.A.).

I think she should be able to test for the rabbanut because she wants to. End of story.

Nobody questions a man as to why he's taking the rabbanut exams or why he isn't doing a B.A. instead.

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:05 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Phew! I really had to choose my words carefully that time!

ImmaBubby

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:16 pm

Has anybody entertained the thought that maybe at least some of these women would have the intention to teach others and be solid role models of yiras shomayim and shmiras mitzvos?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:18 pm

ImmaBubby wrote:

Has anybody entertained the thought that maybe at least some of these women would have the intention to teach others and be solid role models of yiras shomayim and shmiras mitzvos?

This!. There are some amazing Torah power house women out there that are trailing new frontiers for women learning.

imasoftov

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 6:24 pm

banana123 wrote:

... genital hats ...

cat ear hats

zaq

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:48 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

What I dont understand is how could this be a bad thing in any way shape or form? This can only be a positive thing. Obviously not everyone agrees, but thats what I beleive.

You do recall that once upon a time, in that mythical everyone-is-frum pre-WWII eastern europe, educating females, especially religious education beyond how to keep a kosher home and TM, was considered dangerously subversive. Sarah Schenirer was eventually regarded as practically a saint, if we had such a thing, but that was not the case when she first proposed religious education for girls.

CiCi

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:44 pm

So what is the ppurpose of the degree if not to "pasken halacha"? Where else would it be applied and how is it different than serving in the capacity of a "woman rabbi" if one has this degree?

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:38 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I know that this conversation is about Israel, but in my American organization, where our salary is partially determined based on our level of education, simcha is actually considered to be equivalent to a PhD.

nylon

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:52 pm

Think about what you're arguing. Whatever you think of the Rabbanut tests, they're not that easy. Those of you worried about "feminists" (and some would say that anyone interested in women's rights is by default a feminist) -- how many women do you think would really study for years just to prove a point, not because they valued the subject?

Yes, the feminists were involved--Kolech, the religious feminists. There's a growing number of women who have studied intensively and they want the same recognition in terms of status. As I understand it this applies to teachers also--if you were a high school teacher, especially if you taught Torah, wouldn't you want the additional salary that would come from having your religious education recognized as well as your secular one? The AG ruled because the issue was very clear.

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