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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:42 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
If a disabled person wanted to learn how to be a neurosurgeon, should they be allowed to? Is it ok for a person to take a course in a field that they can never work in? Would you question the motives of a person taking a course they can never work in? Should the disabled person be allowed to get a degree in neurosurgery if they cannot safely perform surgery?
Does it reflect badly on the school for giving a degree to someone who cannot and should not use it? Is it unethical to allow it?


Women are allowed to study Torah. They are allowed to become Torah intellectuals. They are allowed to become leaders in their community, and speakers, and teachers. They are allowed to publish books with Torah interpretations.

Women can and do use their Torah learning for many productive matters.

And as others have said here time and again, the rabbanut tests are not used in Israel merely to see who can be a rabbi. They are used to give salary benefits. Is there any reason why a woman who knows Torah is less worthy of a higher salary than her male colleague?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:44 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
If a disabled person wanted to learn how to be a neurosurgeon, should they be allowed to? Is it ok for a person to take a course in a field that they can never work in? Would you question the motives of a person taking a course they can never work in? Should the disabled person be allowed to get a degree in neurosurgery if they cannot safely perform surgery?
Does it reflect badly on the school for giving a degree to someone who cannot and should not use it? Is it unethical to allow it?


This comparison makes no sense. No one is supposed to work in “ Torah.” We all have a stake and obligation to learn Torah. Very little of a rabbi does a woman cannot do halakhically, so why tell her she can’t do anything within the realm of Torah because of those few restrictions?
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:46 am
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
The Attorney General is ruling on the civil side of the things.
Taxpayers' money is a civil issue, government payroll is a civil issue. Not a rabbanical one.


If it’s just a civil issue, you guys wouldn’t be all rejoicing over this. You are obviously happy because it gives the women some degree of scholarly recognition. It’s not just about taxes and salaries.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:47 am
paperflowers wrote:
She didn’t censor anyone or advocate censorship of everyone any more than the rules of this site would. On this forum, users can’t promote things that are against Halacha and the amother has every right to remind others to stay within that rule.

But, this thread wasn’t about making women rabbis, it was about allowing women to take tests that would give them recognition for their torah learning and allow them equal pay in the workforce based on equal ability. Nothing against halacha about that if I understand it correctly.

I was actually just thinking the other day (and didn’t have anyone to talk to about it) how frustrating it is that there is no kind of equivalent title for women to show that they should be respected. In some schools (not all) rebbes automatically have to be given more respect than women because they have the title “rabbi” - even though they don’t even need smicha for the role. Since none of the female teachers are rabbis, they have less status. I was trying to figure out how to grant the same respect within our halachic framework that forbids women from having serera and therefore from being rabbis. Besides for the obvious solution of just being respectful.


I just want to point out that there’s a very strong halakhic argument to be made for the fact that a community or school rabbi doesn’t have serera- considering they are employees and are managed by a board who can easily fire them.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:49 am
malki2 wrote:
If it’s just a civil issue, you guys wouldn’t be all rejoicing over this. You are obviously happy because it gives the women some degree of scholarly recognition. It’s not just about taxes and salaries.


That train has already left the station.
This is a civil achievement that is well overdue.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:49 am
malki2 wrote:
If it’s just a civil issue, you guys wouldn’t be all rejoicing over this. You are obviously happy because it gives the women some degree of scholarly recognition. It’s not just about taxes and salaries.


Recognition of achievement isn't semicha. It's recognition of accomplishment.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:54 am
I actually think giving the same exact test seems more discriminatory toward women. In general, women's torah education is tanach, practical halachah and hashkafah based. Why not have a women's exam based on these things, specifically tanach?

You can and will have people everywhere saying that many to most men likely couldn't pass the women's exams because of their lack of serious tanach education past a certain age. And this way a woman who has delved into this but has not learned any gemara can still pass and have the advantage. And it will be clear that you can't pasken based on what's being assessed, but can be a master educator.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:01 am
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I actually think giving the same exact test seems more discriminatory toward women. In general, women's torah education is tanach, practical halachah and hashkafah based. Why not have a women's exam based on these things, specifically tanach?

You can and will have people everywhere saying that many to most men likely couldn't pass the women's exams because of their lack of serious tanach education past a certain age. And this way a woman who has delved into this but has not learned any gemara can still pass and have the advantage. And it will be clear that you can't pasken based on what's being assessed, but can be a master educator.


I agree, it would be nice if men took Tanach exams as part of semicha testing.

But there are plenty of women out there who learn gemara and halacha and whose accomplishments should be formally recognized with a standardized test. The tests already exist, so there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Wouldn't it be great if your daughter could learn hilchos shabbos from a woman who knows the rules really well, and isn't just reading שמירת שבת כהלכתה? (Or whatever digest is popular in your community.)
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:05 am
malki2 wrote:
If it’s just a civil issue, you guys wouldn’t be all rejoicing over this. You are obviously happy because it gives the women some degree of scholarly recognition. It’s not just about taxes and salaries.


I fear we aren't speaking the same language. OF COURSE I'm happy it gives women some degree of very well-deserved scholarly recognition.

Women deserve both the salary and the recognition. If these things are extraneous and meaningless, then why give them to men?
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:08 am
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I actually think giving the same exact test seems more discriminatory toward women. In general, women's torah education is tanach, practical halachah and hashkafah based. Why not have a women's exam based on these things, specifically tanach?

You can and will have people everywhere saying that many to most men likely couldn't pass the women's exams because of their lack of serious tanach education past a certain age. And this way a woman who has delved into this but has not learned any gemara can still pass and have the advantage. And it will be clear that you can't pasken based on what's being assessed, but can be a master educator.


I agree with you that it's unfortunate that Tanach accomplishments are not recognized. That's a separate discussion.

The thing is, many, many women are already studying gemarah. It's a flourishing field in Israel. And so there is no reason they should not receive professional recognition for their accomplishments (both in terms of respect and in terms of wages).
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:16 am
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
I fear we aren't speaking the same language. OF COURSE I'm happy it gives women some degree of very well-deserved scholarly recognition.

Women deserve both the salary and the recognition. If these things are extraneous and meaningless, then why give them to men?


I am just saying that it seems like we are happy here due to the recognition that the women are getting. To me, a female scholar getting recognition from an attorney general as opposed to a Chief Rabbi really means very, very little.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:20 am
malki2 wrote:
I am just saying that it seems like we are happy here due to the recognition that the women are getting. To me, a female scholar getting recognition from an attorney general as opposed to a Chief Rabbi really means very, very little.


The Chief Rabbi is the head of a State apparatus with a pragmatic function.
He represents very, very little in terms of scholarly achievement.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:21 am
malki2 wrote:
I am just saying that it seems like we are happy here due to the recognition that the women are getting. To me, a female scholar getting recognition from an attorney general as opposed to a Chief Rabbi really means very, very little.


OK, so you , malki2, don't need to study for the smicha exams.
There are lots of things that mean little to me, but I understand that others deserve the right to do them.
Obviously for many women this means more than 'little' - in terms of professional possibilities, in terms of salary, and in terms of societal recognition.

(BTW, a Rabbi doesn't give a PhD from Tel Aviv University either, and it's still a major accomplishment that deserves great recognition. Try thinking of it like that. Imagine only men were awarded PhDs. Would that be fair?)
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:45 am
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
OK, so you , malki2, don't need to study for the smicha exams.
There are lots of things that mean little to me, but I understand that others deserve the right to do them.
Obviously for many women this means more than 'little' - in terms of professional possibilities, in terms of salary, and in terms of societal recognition.

(BTW, a Rabbi doesn't give a PhD from Tel Aviv University either, and it's still a major accomplishment that deserves great recognition. Try thinking of it like that. Imagine only men were awarded PhDs. Would that be fair?)


Of course it’s a great thing. But I consider a rabbanut test to be in the confines of Torah achievement. It’s like when Golda Meir gave Rav Ovadiah Yosef ZTL the Israel prize for his set of seforim Yabia Omer. It didn’t mean a darn to him. Same here.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 9:57 am
I don't think it makes a difference. The rabbanut tests only count for rabbanut positions. They don't count for pretty much anything else. (Unlike in the US, where smicha can be counted as credits towards some degrees.)

At any rate you can't find a rabbanut position without a lot of vitamin P, and regardless of whether women are allowed to test, women will not be able to use the vitamin P to get a rabbanut-paid job.
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Ora in town




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:02 am
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I actually think giving the same exact test seems more discriminatory toward women. In general, women's torah education is tanach, practical halachah and hashkafah based. Why not have a women's exam based on these things, specifically tanach?

You can and will have people everywhere saying that many to most men likely couldn't pass the women's exams because of their lack of serious tanach education past a certain age. And this way a woman who has delved into this but has not learned any gemara can still pass and have the advantage. And it will be clear that you can't pasken based on what's being assessed, but can be a master educator.

You can always develop a test specific for women.

But it's important for women to have access to this exam...
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:08 am
banana123 wrote:
I don't think it makes a difference. The rabbanut tests only count for rabbanut positions. They don't count for pretty much anything else. (Unlike in the US, where smicha can be counted as credits towards some degrees.)

At any rate you can't find a rabbanut position without a lot of vitamin P, and regardless of whether women are allowed to test, women will not be able to use the vitamin P to get a rabbanut-paid job.


No, if you want to teach, the rabbanut counts as a college degree, and you are paid accordingly.

And passing the exams means you know a great deal. That's valuable too.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:08 am
Success10 wrote:
Women and men are not equals. That does NOT mean one is better, or higher, or greater, or more in charge than the other. But they have different roles in the halachic and hashkafic perspective. It's a beautiful reality that modern society has convinced many is archaic and hateful. It's not. Women can not be rabbis. Women can not render a halachic ruling. If women want to advance their Torah knowledge, that's amazing and there are many venues to do that. But not through a rabbanical semicha organization.

Women and men are equal but different. Because women and men have different roles.

That doesn't mean that one is better than the other, or that one has more rights than the other. The Torah focus is on responsibilities, not "rights."

"Equal" does not mean "same" or "identical." (A hunk of cheese and gold coins may weigh an equal amount, but that doesn't mean they're the same. They are equal but obviously the value of each is measured differently.)

(I agree with you. I just wanted to clarify that point.)
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:10 am
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
No, if you want to teach, the rabbanut counts as a college degree, and you are paid accordingly.

And passing the exams means you know a great deal. That's valuable too.

You'd have to do a lot of tests for it to count as a college degree. And it will take several years of devoted study to get there, especially for someone who only learns how to learn gemara in adulthood.

I can know a great deal without passing the exams. People know I know a great deal without me passing the exams.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:11 am
Ora in town wrote:
You can always develop a test specific for women.

But it's important for women to have access to this exam...

No no no. If women are going to push for "equality" and to be "just like men" then let the women who want to test take the standard test just like the men do.

The test standards are already horribly low, we don't need to lower them further to accommodate a fake sameness.
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