AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests

Ora in town

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:18 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

OK, so you , malki2, don't need to study for the smicha exams.
There are lots of things that mean little to me, but I understand that others deserve the right to do them.
Obviously for many women this means more than 'little' - in terms of professional possibilities, in terms of salary, and in terms of societal recognition.

(BTW, a Rabbi doesn't give a PhD from Tel Aviv University either, and it's still a major accomplishment that deserves great recognition. Try thinking of it like that. Imagine only men were awarded PhDs. Would that be fair?)

Actually, not so long ago, this was the case...
Many universities wouldn't let women matriculate...

And then there was this circular reasoning, which I also observe now in some frum circles:

Women were denied access to education. Hence they were not educated. So they were said to be incapable of learning, higher learning, abstract thinking, serious reasoning - you name it...

Meanwhile, women have disproven this myth... but it is still alive and well with respect to gemara learning...

amother

Honeydew

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:18 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I agree with you that it's unfortunate that Tanach accomplishments are not recognized. That's a separate discussion.

The thing is, many, many women are already studying gemarah. It's a flourishing field in Israel. And so there is no reason they should not receive professional recognition for their accomplishments (both in terms of respect and in terms of wages).

So let it be a separate thing.

I think about it is the YU model. A man can get semicha from YU through their semicha program. A man can also get an undergraduate and a graduate degree in Judaic studies, focused on one of various disciplines, from YU's graduate school for Judaic studies, or a degree more focused on Judaic education from their grad school for Judaic education. A woman can get those same degrees, So why can't there be separate exams for semicha and for education?

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:20 am

banana123 wrote:

No no no. If women are going to push for "equality" and to be "just like men" then let the women who want to test take the standard test just like the men do.

The test standards are already horribly low, we don't need to lower them further to accommodate a fake sameness.

Correct. It’s like allowing women into the army and then allowing them to pass tests requiring a lesser degree of physical exertion. Which is actually done. And which is ridiculous.

samantha87

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:22 am

banana123 wrote:

At any rate you can't find a rabbanut position without a lot of vitamin P, and regardless of whether women are allowed to test, women will not be able to use the vitamin P to get a rabbanut-paid job.

Yes - and I see this as a backdoor effort to rebalance the rabbanut bureaucracy to be more dati and less chareidi. It's safe to assume the women taking these tests, at least for the first decade, will be exclusively dati and not chareidi. Tzohar types and politicians will give women the initial P to get in until they build their own momentum. The chareidi elements will not be happy to be bypassed by this movement.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:24 am

banana123 wrote:

You'd have to do a lot of tests for it to count as a college degree. And it will take several years of devoted study to get there, especially for someone who only learns how to learn gemara in adulthood.

I can know a great deal without passing the exams. People know I know a great deal without me passing the exams.

I can study anatomy on my own and become very learned, but that's not the same as getting an M.D. The degree attests to a certain level of expertise. If you pass the the rabbanut exams, you are able to say that you have achieved a particular level of competence. Just walking into an interview and claiming to know stuff doesn't carry the same weight. This is an objective measure.

And by the way, plenty of girls are learning gemara in high school these days. They're not as far behind as you think.

Rappel

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:26 am

malki2 wrote:

You can’t really say that it’s not a Torah matter, because someone who passes the test will be able to get Semicha. So it will effectively raise their status and esteem, even if they don’t officially receive the Semicha.

It's the same name, but very different social status than semicha the way you're thinking of it.

No one in Neve Yaakov, Kiryat Sefer, or anyone else serious is going to say "oh, he passed the Rabbanut exam, he must be chashuv."

It's a legal certification, like a driving test, which allows you to apply for certain jobs because you're certified as "qualified." That's why the Attorney General has a say.

Again, I wish the Rabbanut had done this on their own, orc that this was done quietly by/for serious learners and teachers. Feminists are going to flock to this story waving their own flags and ruining it for the rest of us.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:30 am

malki2 wrote:

Correct. It’s like allowing women into the army and then allowing them to pass tests requiring a lesser degree of physical exertion. Which is actually done. And which is ridiculous.

I agree, it's ridiculous to lower standards.
Nobody is talking about lowering smicha standards so women can pass the exam.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:31 am

malki2 wrote:

Correct. It’s like allowing women into the army and then allowing them to pass tests requiring a lesser degree of physical exertion. Which is actually done. And which is ridiculous.

I agree and that's actually what I was thinking of.

Luckily women taking rabbanut tests doesn't put our ability to defend our country at risk.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:35 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

It's not the same but with an MD you actually get a job helping people. With the rabbanut, 90% of the people studying aren't getting jobs anyways. And an enormous segment don't get the salary bumps either, because they haven't done enough of the tests.

Also, it's not an objective measure. All it says is that you got at least a 60%. Objective measures include real knowledge of the inyan - something which the tests don't really promise anyways.

Yes, many girls learn gemara in high school, but if you think they're achieving the level of proficiency their brothers are, you're wrong. And most of those girls aren't going to take the tests regardless.

And I think you are overestimating the worth of the tests.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:38 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I agree, it's ridiculous to lower standards.
Nobody is talking about lowering smicha standards so women can pass the exam.

Actually someone did mention it. Smile

And I can see feminists pushing for a lower standard because the current standard is "sexist" and "discriminates against women."

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

I actually think giving the same exact test seems more discriminatory toward women. In general, women's torah education is tanach, practical halachah and hashkafah based. Why not have a women's exam based on these things, specifically tanach?

You can and will have people everywhere saying that many to most men likely couldn't pass the women's exams because of their lack of serious tanach education past a certain age. And this way a woman who has delved into this but has not learned any gemara can still pass and have the advantage. And it will be clear that you can't pasken based on what's being assessed, but can be a master educator.

Ora in town wrote:

You can always develop a test specific for women.

But it's important for women to have access to this exam...

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:39 am

banana123 wrote:

I agree and that's actually what I was thinking of.

Luckily women taking rabbanut tests doesn't put our ability to defend our country at risk.

I really don't get this. Who said anything about lowering standards? Do you think women can't pass these exams?
Trust me, the rabbanut is not going to make things easier so women can pass.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:41 am

Rappel wrote:

As a feminist, I don't get this. First of all, we are not some evil faction. Second, how exactly will we ruin it for the rest of you?

Ora in town

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:43 am

Rappel wrote:

Well, but I suspect that they would not have much respect for the average rabbanut pulpit rabbi either...

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:45 am

samantha87 wrote:

First of all, right now the chareidim have way too much vitamin P (as you call it). So I'm not really worried. The rabbanut is run by chareidim and chardalnikim. Tzohar types are by far a minority.

There is nothing wrong with bringing new voices into the rabbanut. New voices from different groups of Orthodox Judaism, and new voices because finally there are women.

But in any case, passing the rabbanut exams doesn't mean you get a rabbanut position. Lots of 'Tzohar' types pass, and because the rabbanut is still dominated by charedim and chardal, they aren't being offered the cushy jobs.

Rappel

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

As a feminist, I don't get this. First of all, we are not some evil faction. Second, how exactly will we ruin it for the rest of you?

I said nothing about evil factions.

But agendas have no place in the Beit midrash, and feminism is a strong, emotionally-charged one which seems to come up whenever a space is made for women in the public religious sphere.

Almost every time I try to join a women's initiative, I find it gets taken over by eager individuals whom, it turns out, are full of anger and angst against some form of patriarchy. These people then drag the initiative away from serving the community's needs, and away from tsniyut, and toward sticking it in the eye of the establishment in the name of equality. I just want to enjoy my religion in a halachic way - I'm sick and tired of these possibilities being co-opted for some crusade which has nothing to do with Torah.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:00 am

banana123 wrote:

What do you call someone who graduates last in his medical school class?
Doctor!

Of course not everyone who passes the semicha exams is an iluy. It just means that he did well enough to pass.

How many women take the tests is irrelevant. There are many more men than women in many math departments. Should women be banned from majoring in math?

I think you're the one who's overestimating the value of these tests. I see them for what they are - a measure of competence in certain areas of halacha. The question remains, why don't we want women to know a lot of halacha?

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:02 am

Rappel wrote:

You word everything so much better than I ever can.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:06 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Ah, so passing the test is not about equal pay, it's about stature and recognition for halachically knowledgeable women?

Maybe now you get why I think it's a baby step away from ordaining women who will go on to issue halachic rulings.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:25 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Yes....so what? Are you saying that we should call anyone who passes these tests "rabbi"? If a Reform guy with zero yirat Shamayim passes these tests, should we call him rabbi? How about if I pass these tests (and I have no doubt I could, if I so wished)? Should you call me rabbi?

PS the average MD is a lot smarter and more serious than the average guy who passes smicha tests from the rabbanut.

I have a question for you: Have you ever questioned people who took these tests? Because we have. And I have zero faith in the tests themselves. Granted, spitback test skills are important. But they don't make you a master of halacha, by any means.

I trust sitting rabbanim. But I don't call every shmoe who passed the tests a rav.