AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:32 pm

ImmaBubby wrote:

I wonder how the people reacted when Devorah was a shofetes...

They understood that she was a Torah scholar and a leader, and respected her for that?

She certainly didn't need to force her way into the position by filing an "inequality" suit so that she could get token recognition from a political body that was losing popularity, when that recognition in any case would make half the nation frown on her.

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:33 pm

ImmaBubby wrote:

I wonder how the people reacted when Devorah was a shofetes...

What a silly thing to say. If she was a shofetes and a neviah, she was perfectly qualified, and by Hashem no less. Unless there were feminists around back then, I’m sure that no one reacted.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:33 pm

banana123 wrote:

Yes....so what? Are you saying that we should call anyone who passes these tests "rabbi"? If a Reform guy with zero yirat Shamayim passes these tests, should we call him rabbi? How about if I pass these tests (and I have no doubt I could, if I so wished)? Should you call me rabbi?

PS the average MD is a lot smarter and more serious than the average guy who passes smicha tests from the rabbanut.

I have a question for you: Have you ever questioned people who took these tests? Because we have. And I have zero faith in the tests themselves. Granted, spitback test skills are important. But they don't make you a master of halacha, by any means.

I trust sitting rabbanim. But I don't call every shmoe who passed the tests a rav.

So if these tests are meaningless, why is it a problem for women to take them?

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:38 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

So if these tests are meaningless, why is it a problem for women to take them?

Excuse me, but DH took one of the Rabbanut tests back in the day because they administered them in his Kollel. It was by no means easy or insignificant. (It was not for the purpose of receiving a rabbanut Semicha, just for the challenge of passing the test itself.)

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:41 pm

Rappel wrote:

I said nothing about evil factions.

But agendas have no place in the Beit midrash, and feminism is a strong, emotionally-charged one which seems to come up whenever a space is made for women in the public religious sphere.

Almost every time I try to join a women's initiative, I find it gets taken over by eager individuals whom, it turns out, are full of anger and angst against some form of patriarchy. These people then drag the initiative away from serving the community's needs, and away from tsniyut, and toward sticking it in the eye of the establishment in the name of equality. I just want to enjoy my religion in a halachic way - I'm sick and tired of these possibilities being co-opted for some crusade which has nothing to do with Torah.

We will have to agree to disagree about feminists.
Personally, I find it tasteless and offensive when someone says 'feminists are ruining it for all of us'. Imagine I said 'chardalnikim are ruining it for the rest of us'. It's just offensive, and paints it as a war of us against them.

Anyway, you don't need to sit for the rabbanut exams if you oppose this. This doesn't need to have any affect on your life.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:43 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

So if these tests are meaningless, why is it a problem for women to take them?

Like I said earlier, I don't think it matters.

This was my first post on this thread:

banana123 wrote:

I don't think it makes a difference. The rabbanut tests only count for rabbanut positions. They don't count for pretty much anything else. (Unlike in the US, where smicha can be counted as credits towards some degrees.)

At any rate you can't find a rabbanut position without a lot of vitamin P, and regardless of whether women are allowed to test, women will not be able to use the vitamin P to get a rabbanut-paid job.

(Then someone said it counts for salary, too, so I responded that that's true but it requires several years of intensive study before you'd see it in your salary.)

If a woman wants to take the test, then sure, let her test. It doesn't make her a rabbi or even knowledgeable, it just makes her a feminist. Just let's not change the test to suit women, because it's already way too low a level. (Hint: If someone can pass the test without ever opening the Taz or Beit Yosef - and people do pass that way, though with low marks - there is something wrong with the test.)

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:46 pm

I'm so confused. Can someone explain one thing to me?

According to the new ruling, will women receive semicha or not upon completion of the tests? (I'm not even sure how the men "receive" semicha upon completion of the tests; is it a certificate?)

If the women are receiving a certificate of semicha; I can understand what the argument is.

If women are not receiving semicha, but just a receive a certificate of completion, or a "degree", and can now get better-paying jobs, why would anyone be against that?

(FTR, I am pretty right wing and understand the concern of potential women rabbis. Just don't get why anyone would be upset that women are getting equal pay, if that's all it really comes down to.)

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:48 pm

malki2 wrote:

I guess I shouldn't mention what my DH thought of the test when he took it....
At first I refused to believe him but over the years we met many people who passed the tests but lack understanding of halacha.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:52 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

So about your last line, if employers start to have to give child sick days to kollel wives, that doesn't affect your life, so you shouldn't have an opinion on it, right? Because if you did have an opinion, that would be offensive and paint things as kollel wives against everyone else.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:57 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Well, first of all, the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the issue. This is just Mandelblit's opinion.

But yes, I think the whole issue is smicha, that basically the push is to grant smicha to women. Could be I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read up on it.

The equal pay thing is, as far as I understood, a convenient excuse to push it forward, and one that most people can't argue with.

Regardless the rabbanut is now working to set up a women's testing system instead of allowing women to take the official smicha tests. We'll see what it ends up being and where it goes.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:59 pm

Success10 wrote:

Ah, so passing the test is not about equal pay, it's about stature and recognition for halachically knowledgeable women?

Maybe now you get why I think it's a baby step away from ordaining women who will go on to issue halachic rulings.

It's about equal pay AND stature and recognition for halachically knowledgeable women.

Stature and recognition are not dirty words in my world. Some people seem to think they should be adjectives only reserved for men. I happen to disagree.

As for your last point - is it a baby step away from ordaining women. Most of the orthodox world is far more than a baby step away from ordaining women. Will the non-Orthodox world use this as a prerequisite for women they ordain anyway? Maybe. You can't control what different communities will do with this. Conservative and reform Judaism are starting to gain a bit of traction in Israel, and very LW minyan shivyoni type Orthodoxy is as well. What will they do with this? Who knows.

You can't refuse women equal rights just because you are worried what certain communities will do with it. In any case, there are already female rabbis in Israel, this isn't going to suddenly give them any ideas.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:04 pm

banana123 wrote:

brilliant. So why do you take issue with all this?

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:04 pm

banana123 wrote:

Maybe we are talking about a different test. DH was in a very highly regarded Israeli kollel and basically shut himself in a room for a few weeks to prepare. He needed to be completely fluent in the entire section of what he was learning at the time including Beit Yosef. There were a few levels of test results, and he passed with the highest mark as did most of the members of his kollel. So maybe you are referring to people who barely passed. Or maybe things were different 20+ years ago.

Last edited by malki2 on Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

etky

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:04 pm

banana123 wrote:

The Attorney General is the same.

Of course.
I was contesting the idea that there is some greater inherent spiritual or scholarly worth in recognition from the Chief Rabbinate rather than from the Attorney General.
Both are government bureaucracies.

malki2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:06 pm

etky wrote:

You may be correct on that. But at least the Chief Rabbis have Torah scholarship.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:07 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

brilliant. So why do you take issue with all this?

OP asked what we think.

I didn't say I take issue with women taking the test. I take issue with other things, related to the core issue of why this even came to be a discussion. I take issue with dumbing things down. But if a woman wants to test, I don't think it has any meaning. Let her test and have her ego pill.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:10 pm

malki2 wrote:

Alrighty, which test did your DH do in kollel? Though I highly doubt the structure differs by topic.

I'm actually not sure you're referring to the rabbanut tests. Some kollelim give tests far more difficult than those of the rabbanut.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:12 pm

banana123 wrote:

I don't understand. Kollel wives get child sick days like any other working woman, don't they?

Besides, I didn't say she couldn't have an opinion. I said it should have no effect on her life (she said it would 'ruin' Torah study for other women somehow).

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:13 pm

banana123 wrote:

OP asked what we think.

I didn't say I take issue with women taking the test. I take issue with other things, related to the core issue of [b]why this even came to be a discussion. [/b]I take issue with dumbing things down. But if a woman wants to test, I don't think it has any meaning. Let her test and have her ego pill.

Can you explain the bolded further?

Also, can you explain why you think this is all just a meaningless egotistic ploy by feminists?

It seems from other posters that it in fact does have meaningful effects on women's everyday lives, such as good jobs and equal pay.

I know nothing about the reality of any of this; I don't live in Israel and this has no effect on me at all. Just want to understand the whole issue, and both sides.

(Do you live in Israel btw?)