Do you consider yourself a Zionist?

essie14

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:08 am

Success10 wrote:

Wait, so let me get this straight. There are orthodox women on this site who genuinely believe that Torah learning does not sustain and protect Eretz Yisroel?

I do not believe that torah learning exclusively protects eretz yisrael. no DL rabbi believes that either.
I also believe that torah learning can happen in conjunction with army service.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:10 am

Success10 wrote:

I understood that women felt army service was obligatory, and it was immoral for some segments not to serve, either exclusively or alongside with learning. But I had no idea that some women really saw no value to Torah learning in the grand scheme of protecting the land. That is news to me.

I dont think people think there is NO vlaue in Torah learning, but not the way it is set up in today's Israeli society.

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:16 am

Success10 wrote:

Learning Torah is valuable in and of itself (says a woman whose husband learns full time and whose sons served in header). It has no magical power to defend the country.

Success10

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:16 am

essie14 wrote:

I do not believe that torah learning exclusively protects eretz yisrael. no DL rabbi believes that either.
I also believe that torah learning can happen in conjunction with army service.

I didn't say exclusively. Hishtadlus is always needed. There is no country in the world that could survive without an army, especially one as vulnerable as Israel.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:33 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Thank you, General Salmon, for assessing the manpower needs of the IDF.

While you're at it, can you tell me what percentage of yeshiva bochurim are not necessary for the yeshivas to offer their protection to the country?

About 30%.
YOu can start another thread about boys who are in yeshiva nad not learning.

WitchKitty

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:35 am

essie14 wrote:

I do not believe that torah learning exclusively protects eretz yisrael. no DL rabbi believes that either.
I also believe that torah learning can happen in conjunction with army service.

I believe that torah learning exclusively protects Eretz Yisrael. I do not believe that it protects Medinat Yisrael, in any way:)
Carry on, I'm enjoying my popcorn Very Happy

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:12 am

LovesHashem wrote:

The army has served the chareidi soldiers rabbanut by mistake multiple times. I don't trust people who do that. I do think many kids are strong enough but some aren't at 18. In addition like I said before, the learning is serving this country - you are free to disagree.

It would be so wonderful if the learners and the soldiers felt like partners. It shouldn't take a war or close to it for bochrim to be given soldiers' name.
We're coming up to parashas Matos, I believe it was there that I learned that for every soldier, there were x number of people learning and davening.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:19 am

WitchKitty wrote:

I believe that torah learning exclusively protects Eretz Yisrael. I do not believe that it protects Medinat Yisrael, in any way:)
Carry on, I'm enjoying my popcorn Very Happy

Wooooowwww.
Look, I davened this morning. We don't see direct cause and effect as per the second parasha of Shema, though we've certainly got broad hints. Eg shmitta stories, many many more. EY has never stopped being the land Hashem's eyes are on, and it still operates on a very special plane.

But besides that, Torah learning everywhere creates zechuyos and is a shemira. I believe it brings tremendous bracha even if I don't see it. There was a story, I wish I remembered the details, in some 19th century Lithuanian city with much Torah learning, that the gentiles felt that the presence of the yeshiva enhanced the city, like a perfume factory makes the neighborhood smell beautiful. Why not in the physical land of EY, that, I'm sorry still has tremendous kedusha, even if not the level of what we daven for?

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:42 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And yet, Hashem doesn't exempt Israel from the laws of nature. The Jews didn't just march into Israel; they had to capture it militarily.

Classical Jewish learning doesn't support the notion that there's no need for Jews to defend themselves or to work for a living. It's wonderful when Jews learn, and that has nothing to do with having an army. We're reading Sefer Bemidbar now, where we count the people to prepare an army. Surely Moshe Rabbenu knew how to learn a little. Why wasn't that enough?

Chickensoupprof

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:49 am

I'm not zionist I guess.

I do not vote for a political party who has being pro-Israel as concern because I don't believe in that. If I vote for a party who is pro-Israel I'm also voting for a party who is not good for healthcare and social services and education and I find that way better then here. Yeah, I'm left-wing, maybe way too left-wing according to most of you.
I also need to emphasize that I didn't grow up religious nor zionist, most secular Jews have Israel as their concern and know about Yom Hamatzaut I didn't know about this till I was 23. So I'm biased.
I don't like nationalism in general.

Also my biggest concern with zionism is that accoridng to some people it has and it is replacing religion and I think that is wrong. But I see it happen all the time.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 9:03 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I get you. This is a loaded topic.

moonstone

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 9:31 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Most of the boys learn on their own during bein hazmanim.
The army can send 90% of them home during peaceful times and nothing will happen.
I work in a cellphone company. When the army was not allowed to return home during the hesger I got 10 phone calls a day from soldiers who finished the 150 GB alloted to them. It didn't sound to me like they were doing anything but watching movies (we did seell them a lot of movies too)

This post really bothered me. You clearly know nothing about the army, as evidenced by your obvious lack of respect or caring for our soldiers.

No, they can't just send 90% of them home. The soldiers are constantly in training, both physically and mentally. They need to keep up their skills and their edge, so that when Gd forbid there's a war, they'll be ready. And if they sometimes have extra downtime to be on their phones, like when Corona kept them stuck on base, they damm (misspelled on purpose) well deserve it. All night marches and sleeping in full gear in a hole in the ground (that the guys have to dig themselves) kind of wears you out, you know?

Your attitude is disgusting. But lucky for you, the IDF (including my son) will protect you anyway.

I usually think people who hide behind amother are pathetic, but I'm actually glad I don't know who you are.

leah233

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 9:41 am

I didn't read all eight pages so I don't know if this point was made yet but there is a major difference between what the secular and frum worlds consider to be "Zionist"

In the secular world "Zionist" means siding with Israel in the Israel-Palestine geopolitical conflict and caring about the safety and wellbeing of Jews living in Israel.

In that context I would be considered a ardent Zionist.

In the frum (particularly Chareidi))world "Zionist" means agreeing with the values and ideologies of the founders of secular Zionism or current secular Israelis even if they aren't Zionist.

In that context I am a ardent anti-Zionist.

Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Jul 02 2020, 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

sequoia

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 9:58 am

Moonstone, I love you.

One of the reasons this topic on imamother causes so many hurt feelings is because there are women here whose sons are in the IDF, risking their lives, whose husbands are in the reserves from time to time and they have to handle everything at home by themselves, and then some amothers blithely tell them, “Your sons and husbands are doing nothing of value!”

Or even, “they are doing an aveira!” [!!!]

Success10

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:00 am

sequoia wrote:

I don't think anyone here said soldiers are doing "nothing of value". I do, however, think that sentiment was used to describe the many husbands and sons who dedicate their lives to learning Torah.