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How much does Israel figure into your vote?
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Poll

How much does Israel figure into your vote?
Totally, I’d never vote for someone who wasn’t very pro-israel
 76%  [ 29 ]
Somewhat, I’m not that concerned about Israel
 7%  [ 3 ]
Not at all, only what happens in America matters to me
 7%  [ 3 ]
If it’s between Trump and even an anti-Israel candidate, belonging to a party with anti semites, I choose the latter
 7%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 38


servewithjoy




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:40 pm
If the Republicans became anti semitic and anti Israel and Democrats became the party and candidate that was pro Israel and had a good relationship with Israel you betcha I would vote that candidate whoever he or she would be
As others said its also a good litmus test that goes along with other values I hold dear and crucial.
I am not locked into a political party.
Things change. The democrats used to be the party of the KKK and the Southern confederates. I understand things can take wild turns over time. Keep an open mind and strive to be intellectually honest. Best candidate regardless of party for sure!
(full disclosure the only Jews I know who do not factor in Israel into their vote are very assimilated and unaffiliated--believe Pew research bears this out.)
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jul 04 2020, 2:07 pm
Ugh, I hate this question so much, because it's so hard!

I live in Israel, so of course Israel is my number one concern.

Still, I know and love many people who are still in America, and some of Trump's policies concern me.

(I am not going to say which policies, because that's not relevant to the discussion, and I'm not in the mood for a debate.)

What worries me the most, is that for the past 3 or 4 election cycles, it's always come down to the lesser of two evils. I end up holding my nose and voting for the person who is 49% less evil than the other one. That isn't exactly a vote of confidence, it's more a vote of "who will do the least amount of damage in 4 years?"

Every candidate I've ever really loved has always ended up dropping out in the primaries, and I end up heartbroken at the options left on the table.

I mean, come on America! It's a huge country, can you find at least TWO people who are not complete wingnuts? That's all I ask, really. Banging head
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Teomima




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jul 04 2020, 3:30 pm
Jeanette wrote:

Well, first of all, it makes me question (especially from an America-first perspective) why people should even be allowed to vote long term by absentee ballot if they’re living in another country. Especially with Trump agitating so much against voting by mail. Maybe there should be a limit on how many consecutive years you can vote absentee if you’ve moved out of the country. Because there is an issue of people choosing our president when they’re not the ones living with the consequences.

You make a valid point. I value my American vote because I do feel it impacts me even though I live abroad, and also my family that still lives in the States, and I wish to have input on the country my children may choose to live in (they are all US citizens). However it would be hypocritical of me to not accept my ineligibility to cast an absentee ballot, should the voting policies change, seeing as Israelis are not allowed to vote in domestic elections via absentee ballot.

It would be interesting to see, considering how strongly people feel about Trump one way or another, what people would do should they not be able to vote in the US elections via absentee ballot. Were we not dealing with a global pandemic I think thousands, if not tens of thousands, of US citizens living abroad would flock to the States come November.

Meanwhile, while we are (still?) able to vote, I hope other Americans take my same perspective and vote in the US elections as Americans first and foremost. I certainly wouldn't want a nonresident Israeli to fly in to Israel just to vote and make their decisions based on anything but what's best for Israel (though frankly it was such a joke the last [3] elections. I know people who really did fly in to vote...hah!)
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jul 04 2020, 3:59 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Quote:

Yes. You make a lot of good points that I absolutely agree with. I don't think it's right to vote 100% in favor of what would be good for Israel if it would be very bad for those in the US. For those who believe Trump is a good president, this is a non-issue, so it's easy to say "I vote 100% pro-Israel", but I wonder (and never get an answer) if they would still vote pro-Israel if it just so happened that it was the liberal left who was pro-Israel and Trump who was pro-Palestine!

I obviously mis-spoke upthread (thats' what I get for typing with one hand in a rush whole taking care of my baby with my left hand!) - when I said "If I lived in Israel, I would vote pro Israel", I meant to say, "If I were an Israeli citizen, I would obviously be voting 100% pro-Israel, because that would be my country, etc."

The more I think about all this, the more questions I have, and the more I wonder how much the US president has to do with to well-being of Israel - or how much he/she SHOULD have to do with it ... ideally, Israel should be very strong and able to support it's own interests without ANY outside assistance. That is the only way the Jewish people can truly be protected. I don't know what the answer is.


Well, first of all, it makes me question (especially from an America-first perspective) why people should even be allowed to vote long term by absentee ballot if they’re living in another country. Especially with Trump agitating so much against voting by mail. Maybe there should be a limit on how many consecutive years you can vote absentee if you’ve moved out of the country. Because there is an issue of people choosing our president when they’re not the ones living with the consequences.



Listen, if after a certain number of years they'll agree to stop charging me taxes, then I'll take that as fair trade for my voting rights. But until then, I'm going to exercise my right to vote as a citizen who is paying into the system.

(And thank you for your support of our homeland. It means a lot to read that.)
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jul 04 2020, 4:21 pm
Rappel wrote:
Listen, if after a certain number of years they'll agree to stop charging me taxes, then I'll take that as fair trade for my voting rights. But until then, I'm going to exercise my right to vote as a citizen who is paying into the system.

(And thank you for your support of our homeland. It means a lot to read that.)


Was just going to write the same thing.
No taxation w/o representation.
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 6:48 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:


3. My Rabbi told us to vote for "Whoever we thought was the most qualified." I never heard anything about how Trump's election was integral to the Redemption of the Jews. Do you really think that there will be no redemption if Trump loses?


Just commenting on this. Clergy try to avoid using their pulpit to endorse political candidates due to IRS regs. I wouldn't assume that a particular Rabbi does or doesn't support a particular candidate based on their very pareve public statement.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:35 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:
I think we both know that we could spend all day (or possibly the rest of our lives?) citing articles that back up our position, but I really don't have the time to dedicate to that.

But, if you don't know that, let me know, and I will try to find time to cite some articles, because I do think that it is vitally important that we ALL understand that the other side is (for the most part, anyway) neither ignorant or evil. We all have different opinions, logic, and reasons, most of which are valid.

And unfortunately, we live in a country where the media seems to be actively working to manipulate and divide people and sell to their base rather than accurately representing facts and the whole picture. So, we all get to choose what news we hear and believe. The end result is that we are not even experiencing the same reality. It's really messed up. At this point, I am very mistrustful of all media, and assume everything is being misrepresented. But I don't have time to fact-check EVERYTHING I read, so ... I still have to pick some sources that I feel are reasonably accurate/moderate. I see that most of your sources are very right wing. Do you fact-check your sources? It's so overwhelming to do it, but so important.

Some other points:

1. Just today I started thinking ... Israel needs to be able to stand on it's own two feet. How can it be the safe-haven for all the Jews when it can't support itself? I know it's very hard and complicated, but at the moment, if the whole world turned against us, Israel would be doomed, and millions of Jews would be killed, because Israel can't defend itself without outside help. That's NOT a good position to be in. How can we fix that???

2. I don't believe that Trump is pro-Israel. I believe that Trump is pro-Trump. He has done a good job of using Israel to win over the pro-Israel voter base, but I have no doubt that he would throw Israel under the bus if he thought it would help him.

3. My Rabbi told us to vote for "Whoever we thought was the most qualified." I never heard anything about how Trump's election was integral to the Redemption of the Jews. Do you really think that there will be no redemption if Trump loses?

4. Just because I am not a one-issue-pro-Israel voter does not mean that I have "little empathy" for Israel. Would YOU vote for someone who you felt would destroy America just because they pretended to be pro-Israel? Even if it cost American Jews their lives?

Oh, I could keep going, really, but ... I have a question for you, first:

Are you really interested in understanding my position? Because I have a new baby and a free-lance job, and PLENTY to do around the house, so I'm not interested in pointless debate. But I DO believe in learning, loving, understanding, etc. Please let me know:)


Your post could have been written by any democrat leader or any left wing, fake news media spokesperson ie. CNN. Trump is “pretending” to be pro Israel? That statement in itself shows how you’ve bought into the hate-Trump narrative. No honest, thinking person could deny that what he has done for Israel (moved embassy, declared settlements to be Israeli land, declared Golan Heights to be Israeli, never pressured Israel to give up previous land to the terror entity, the PA, as every president before him has, and so much more). Pretending?

As far as no redemption without Trump, the way you’ve twisted things is scary. There have been numerous rabbis who’ve brought sources from the Torah, saying that there will be a righteous gentile who will be a wonderful friend to the Jews, and will help usher in the era of Moshiach. Are you saying you doubt the Torah? Hashem can of course make it happen any way He wishes to, but to deny what’s written and predicted is not something any Jew should do.

We are jews first, that’s how we live our lives, and to say Israel and our brethren who live there are not our priority is to have values that are quite skewed.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:36 pm
jerusalem90 wrote:
Theoretically, if one candidate were mildly pro-Israel and another was very pro-Israel, then I would look at other issues as well and wouldn't vote soley on Israel.

But if one is pro-Israel and the other is anti-Israel, then even if I disagree with the pro-Israel one on.everything else I'd vote for him/her.

Preventing another Holocaust is infinitely more important than anything else.


Every Jew should feel the same. It’s sad that so many admit otherwise.

Laiya wrote:
Just commenting on this. Clergy try to avoid using their pulpit to endorse political candidates due to IRS regs. I wouldn't assume that a particular Rabbi does or doesn't support a particular candidate based on their very pareve public statement.


Rabbi Yisroel Reisman and many other rabbonim have publicly said we owe a debut of gratitude to Trump and yes, have indirectly endorsed them.

lavenderchimes wrote:
My big theoretical question to all who are 100% one-issue-pro-Israel voters who support Trump is:

If the situation were flipped, and it were the Liberal Democrats who were pro-Israel - if it were Biden of Sanders or Warren or whoever – and you really believed that they, if elected, would bring the downfall of the US, would you still vote for them? Would you still be 100% one-issue-pro-Israel voters?

Maybe I'll make my own poll after Shabbos:)

Shabbat Shalom, everyone!!!


No one here on the Trump side has said we are one-issue voters. We don’t have to decide between the most pro Israel president in US history and the downfall of the US. Right now, the Dems are the anti-Israel party who would also no doubt bring down the US! Just look at how they’re coddling the criminals, bail reform laws, encouraging BLM in their violence, allowing statues to be torn down, all for the sake of pandering for votes.


Last edited by Cheiny on Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:40 pm
Double post

Last edited by Cheiny on Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:43 pm
Double post

Last edited by Cheiny on Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:45 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Quote:

Yes. You make a lot of good points that I absolutely agree with. I don't think it's right to vote 100% in favor of what would be good for Israel if it would be very bad for those in the US. For those who believe Trump is a good president, this is a non-issue, so it's easy to say "I vote 100% pro-Israel", but I wonder (and never get an answer) if they would still vote pro-Israel if it just so happened that it was the liberal left who was pro-Israel and Trump who was pro-Palestine!

I obviously mis-spoke upthread (thats' what I get for typing with one hand in a rush whole taking care of my baby with my left hand!) - when I said "If I lived in Israel, I would vote pro Israel", I meant to say, "If I were an Israeli citizen, I would obviously be voting 100% pro-Israel, because that would be my country, etc."

The more I think about all this, the more questions I have, and the more I wonder how much the US president has to do with to well-being of Israel - or how much he/she SHOULD have to do with it ... ideally, Israel should be very strong and able to support it's own interests without ANY outside assistance. That is the only way the Jewish people can truly be protected. I don't know what the answer is.


Well, first of all, it makes me question (especially from an America-first perspective) why people should even be allowed to vote long term by absentee ballot if they’re living in another country. Especially with Trump agitating so much against voting by mail. Maybe there should be a limit on how many consecutive years you can vote absentee if you’ve moved out of the country. Because there is an issue of people choosing our president when they’re not the ones living with the consequences.

I also agree with you (and I’ve made this point in many other threads) that Israel has their own leaders to look out for their interests. A US president has many other priorities to deal with and Israel is a very small part of his agenda. An American president has very different considerations for its relationship with Saudi Arabia, Russia or Iran than what’s good for Israel. I’m not convinced that the destabilization of America’s relationship with its allies under Trump necessarily redounds to Israel’s benefit.

I think people also exaggerate a whole lot about which president is a friend or an enemy of Israel. Most US presidents did some good things for Israel and some bad things. I wish there was a way to have this discussion in a reasonable way without all the hyperbole (Greatest ohev Yisroel in history! Worst soneh Yisroel in history!)

I think ppl in this group would be surprised at how right wing my views on Israel are. I’m both pro settlement and pro annexation (although I think it should have been done way earlier). I don’t believe that a Palestinian people exist as an independent entity and the surrounding Arab countries need to take more responsibility to resettle and absorb them. And I still think Trump is a terrible president for Americans AND for Israelis.


Talk is cheap. Supporting a party with the anti semites ilhan Omar, Tlaib, AOC, Sanders, and their open calls for BDS and aid cuts to Israel, pressuring Israel to give up more land to the PA, is spitting in the face of Israel.

lavenderchimes wrote:
Yes. You make a lot of good points that I absolutely agree with. I don't think it's right to vote 100% in favor of what would be good for Israel if it would be very bad for those in the US. For those who believe Trump is a good president, this is a non-issue, so it's easy to say "I vote 100% pro-Israel", but I wonder (and never get an answer) if they would still vote pro-Israel if it just so happened that it was the liberal left who was pro-Israel and Trump who was pro-Palestine!

I obviously mis-spoke upthread (thats' what I get for typing with one hand in a rush whole taking care of my baby with my left hand!) - when I said "If I lived in Israel, I would vote pro Israel", I meant to say, "If I were an Israeli citizen, I would obviously be voting 100% pro-Israel, because that would be my country, etc."

The more I think about all this, the more questions I have, and the more I wonder how much the US president has to do with to well-being of Israel - or how much he/she SHOULD have to do with it ... ideally, Israel should be very strong and able to support it's own interests without ANY outside assistance. That is the only way the Jewish people can truly be protected. I don't know what the answer is.


Do you really not understand just how much power an American President has when it comes to Israel, her interest, which are America’s interests as well? You should have known from how obama, the worst anti-Israel President in history since Carter (and that’s saying a lot) stuck a knife in Israel’s back as his last act in office with the the UN, how he secretly have $140 billion to Iran, the world’s largest sponsor of terror who is committed to the destruction of Israel and the US, how he coddled every arab state, put untold pressure on Israel, etc., that N.A. American
PResident does indeed wield a lot of power when it comes to Israel, her security and survival!


Last edited by Cheiny on Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jul 05 2020, 8:48 pm
Double post
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