If you believe anti-zionists aren’t anti semites

Reality

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 12:20 pm

itsmeima wrote:

I believe anti-zionists doesn't always equal anti-Semitism.

This story doesn't change anything.

(As a service provider who doesn't want to "have to" serve "everyone" I don't think we should protest. It can backfire.)

Really? You think that a restaurant should be able to choose who to serve?

What a double standard! You would be ok with a restaurant saying "No BLM supporters welcome"?

itsmeima

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 12:30 pm

Reality wrote:

Really? You think that a restaurant should be able to choose who to serve?

What a double standard! You would be ok with a restaurant saying "No BLM supporters welcome"?

Yes, I do! I'm 100% biased in this area...

I don't want it to backfire... Think wedding venues, photographers, graphic designers, cake decorators etc. It will backfire.

People can choose to put for example this restaurant out of business, but they don't have to serve everyone!

malki2

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 12:30 pm

Many leaders of Arab countries hate Zionists but had nothing against Jews in general. Jews in Arab lands for the most part lived in relative harmony with their Arab neighbors, of course with the occasional pogrom here and there. I don’t see the issue here.

simcha2

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 12:36 pm

Wasn't there just a whole thread about whether imamothers considered themselves zionists?

I think anti-zionism is frequently antisemitism, especially if it denies the jewish right to self determinism.

I don't think every criticism of the Israeli government, regardless of who makes it, is inherently antisemitic.

(Saying israel doesn't have a right to exist as a jewish homeland = antisemitic
Criticism of Israeli policies = not antisemitic)

Amarante

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 12:46 pm

I am not sure how anyone can tell whether someone is a Zionist by looking at them especially since some of the most stereotypical looking Jews are in fact anti-Zionism. Smile

I guess someone could walk in and shriek they are a Zionist and wait to see whether they are served and then sue although I am not sure what Toronto public facilities law are.

In answer to your question, I don't think most people at this point separate the existence of Israel from its more recent treatment of Arabs and annexation of land. It is entirely possible to believe in the right of Israel to exist but not support the current policies. There are many Jews who think that the current policies are counter productive and I don't think it fair to consider them to be anti-Semitic. One can have issues with policies of the American government and not be anti-American - whether one is a US citizen or one is a citizen of another country.

Fox

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:24 pm

Amarante wrote:

In answer to your question, I don't think most people at this point separate the existence of Israel from its more recent treatment of Arabs and annexation of land. It is entirely possible to believe in the right of Israel to exist but not support the current policies. There are many Jews who think that the current policies are counter productive and I don't think it fair to consider them to be anti-Semitic. One can have issues with policies of the American government and not be anti-American - whether one is a US citizen or one is a citizen of another country.

In theory, you are correct. In practice, it never seems to work this way.

Britain's Labour Party is a perfect example. Years ago, when the alarms were first sounded, Corbyn and his acolytes claimed with at least a bit of plausible deniability that they were simply critical of specific Israeli polices. But as time went on, the attacks became less policy-based and broader. Now it is quite common for prominent Labour members to decry the existence of Israel, and it's fairly common for them to skip that step entirely and go right into Jew-hatred.

So I'm naturally a bit suspicious when a non-Israeli with no personal ties to Israel suddenly has lots of negative opinions on Israeli policy. It's odd -- as if I were to get excited over India's policies -- and it's frequently a canary in the coal mine.

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:25 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

Anti-Zionism is quite often used as a cover for anti-Semitism, but I don't think Satmar, for example, is anti-Semitic.

I agree, but the neturei karta filth is... they’d rather see harm come to jews than arabs.

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:27 pm

simcha2 wrote:

Especially when it’s typically used to try to say Trump’s pro-Israel policies aren’t no big deal, right?

simcha2

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:32 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Especially when it’s typically used to try to say Trump’s pro-Israel policies aren’t no big deal, right?

I literally don't understand your comment.

Can you parse it for me?

I don't think I said anything even vaguely partisan.

ETA, in response to Fox. Corbyn always questioned Israel's right to exist and it's self governance as a jewish state, thereby, in my eyes at least, easily falling into antisemitism.

This is different than criticizing individual policies while still recognizing the jewish right to self determination in israel.

Last edited by simcha2 on Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 5:33 pm

Amarante wrote:

I am not sure how anyone can tell whether someone is a Zionist by looking at them especially since some of the most stereotypical looking Jews are in fact anti-Zionism. Smile

Like I said especially when you must use that viewpoint in order to bash Trump with it....

As far as the “ I don't think most people at this point separate the existence of Israel from its more recent treatment of Arabs and annexation of land,” you sound just like Omar, tlaib, Bernie Sanders, etc. What “treatment of Arabs” are you referring to? Are you seriously insinuating that, in line with the the anti Semitic positions of the UN and Arabs, Israel oppresses them?

liveandlove.ima

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:12 pm

Just like the N-word is considered racist when used by someone white etc. but is considered okay when used by one with color. they [restaurant owner] are certainly considered anti-Semitic with this action, but in general there are many Jews that disagree with the Zionists and their views, and would call themselves anti-Zionist to show they oppose. would that be considered anti-Semitic? Absolutely not.

On a lighter note, I find this quite interesting that they, [restaurant] are pointing out Zionists directly, as opposed to generalizing on Jews universally which gentiles usually would do

Reality

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:28 pm

itsmeima wrote:

A restaurant doesn't have to serve everyone? So you are ok with a restaurant putting up a sign " no blacks, no jews"?

Anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something off the shelf or menu.

You are worried about what happened to the gay couple and the bakery? Had that couple walked into the bakery and purchased a generic cake the bakery would have had no problem selling it to them. They just didn't want to decorate a cake with two men on top. They felt it was against their religion. That is completely different then ordering a soda off the menu.

iyar

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:38 pm

malki2 wrote:

Ah yes, the occasional pogrom. No big deal.
תרפ״ט חברון.
67 Yidden killed, men, women and children.
Your concept of relative harmony is relative in the extreme.
(This was, by the way, just a little less than 20 years before the establishment of מדינת ישראל.)

Reality

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:48 pm

iyar wrote:

Thank you. I can't stand when people say how good it was under arab rule before the State of Israel. It was good COMPARED to Europe. It wasn't being treated well. The Jews were second class citizens. They always had to be careful. Shuls had to be smaller and plainer then the local Mosque.

Believe me no modern day American Jew would think it was a good life if they had to go back in time and live like that.

To summarize, life for Jews under Arab rule before 1948 was comparatively good. Not good.

simcha2

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 8:03 pm

iyar wrote:

While I'm not disputing the ikkar of your post, for historical accuracy, it should be noted, in 1929 Palestine (and thereby Hevron) was under British, not arab, rule.

iyar

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 8:11 pm

simcha2 wrote:

While I'm not disputing the ikkar of your post, for historical accuracy, it should be noted, in 1929 Palestine (and thereby Hevron) was under British, not arab, rule.

For historical accuracy, who murdered the Jews?

(Though I will admit the British did nothing to stop them.)

simcha2

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 8:14 pm

iyar wrote:

For historical accuracy, who murdered the Jews?

(Though I will admit the British did nothing to stop them.)

As I said I'm not disputing the murderous treatment by the arabs, but the following "Thank you. I can't stand when people say how good it was under arab rule before the State of Israel" was written in response to your post.

But it wasn't Arab rule.