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WWYD? "Fair"



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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 4:26 pm
Disclaimer - a lot of the facts here are immutable, so you can offer suggestions to change them but I'm letting you know up front that we probably already thought of them and they are impractical or impossible.

We've been home pretty much since the beginning of corona. We're home a lot normally, but often in the summer we go on trips to family or just out.

Now we are stuck with very limited transportation, and it is a vehicle that is too small for the whole family. I am not feeling up to arranging trips, although with a little persuasion I'm willing to go. The most I think I MIGHT manage is to the playground which is unfortunately not in walking distance.

A friend in the general area offered to arrange trips and we can meet them there, which would be really fun for us. However we can't all go at once.

We already thought through all the possibilities and we cannot take shifts, get another driver, uber, get a bigger vehicle, double buckle, or get out of this in any other way.

The ONLY option is to either take turns, or not to go at all.

BUT if we take turns, they will not be going on identical trips. Some trips may be longer, more "fun," or more exciting than others. The ones who stay home will have to babysit the younger ones (1-5 yo) if they aren't going on that trip (DH will be home, but working).

I cannot and will not drive myself crazy to arrange things to make it "fair." I also cannot ask our friends to provide us an itinerary to pre-plan who goes where and when.

Some of my kids say that it's better to go on no trips than to have an unfair balance, others contend that it's better to go somewhere than to go nowhere.

I hear both sides. I don't like to foster jealousy between siblings, but isn't it better to have something than nothing? I'm also mixed on the chinuch aspect - is it better to teach them that for Ahavas Yisroel we don't make other people jealous, or teach them that life isn't fair so who cares?

WWYD?
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:20 pm
Draw lots. Don't try to make a decision about who goes on which trip - any decision you make will automatically be wrong.

I don't k ow your children's ages, but divide them into groups based on age. Say you have four spaces in the car, sit them into an older and younger group, and pull names out of a hat as to who goes on the first trip. Two names from the older group, and two from the younger group. For the next trip, draw names only from those who did not go the first time. And so on until everyone has had one trip. Then put all the names in and start again. You might have to institute a no swapping rule.

Anyone who feels there should be no trips is invited to take their name out of the hat and stay home all the time. And life isn't fair. On average everyone should get some good trips and some less good. But if you look for the good side, there is normally something to enjoy.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:36 pm
Maybe someone would like to rent your car for the summer and then you can rent a larger one.
Many people want a car only for the summer.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:55 pm
Take turns.

Not every trip will be exciting for every kid, so it should work out.

Draw lots. I don't know how many kids, but say 8. So you have positions 1 through 8. First trip, 1 says yes or no. Then down through, to the number of slots you have.

Next trip, start with the first kid who didn't get a chance to choose for the last trip. Then anyone who said no to the last trip. Then last, those who went on the last one.

This way, over the summer, everyone gets a chance at a trip they want.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 7:11 pm
I believe catering to "fair" is poor parenting. Each kid according to their needs. Go on trips. You will all lose your minds if you don't. If there is a specific awesome one you can do it twice. By being unfair you can cater to age and gender and interests. And the kids at home can use that time for special activities.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 7:40 pm
You can go to every place twice, and take the other half that stayed behind the last time.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 8:08 pm
Thanks Elfrida and Sixofwands, I'll see if my kids will go for that type of method. I was originally thinking of just splitting them in half and trading off, so the kids go on every second trip. Those ways might be a bit more appealing to them.

Tangerine, the vehicle we have is a rental vehicle, and no chance of changing cars. We have what we have.

Bisque, I agree that catering to "fair" is not such great chinuch, OTOH giving children unequally deliberately is not known to promote love among siblings. For various reasons, I will not be doing trips twice, unless the other family wants to. So there may be cases where some kids miss out on an "amazing" trip. But at this point, it's that or nothing.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 8:16 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks Elfrida and Sixofwands, I'll see if my kids will go for that type of method. I was originally thinking of just splitting them in half and trading off, so the kids go on every second trip. Those ways might be a bit more appealing to them.

Tangerine, the vehicle we have is a rental vehicle, and no chance of changing cars. We have what we have.

Bisque, I agree that catering to "fair" is not such great chinuch, OTOH giving children unequally deliberately is not known to promote love among siblings. For various reasons, I will not be doing trips twice, unless the other family wants to. So there may be cases where some kids miss out on an "amazing" trip. But at this point, it's that or nothing.


Im honestly torn. And giving to kids unequally on purpose is discouraged (Yosef was hated by his brothers... a lot is written there).

It would depend a lot on the overall dynamics and personalities. I would also try to find a way to make the kids that stay back have fun as well- order in pizza? Paint? Watch a video if you allow those? Otherwise I think it’s just bad parenting to leave behind kids to their own devices while half go out for a whole day at a time.

Also, how unfair are we talking about? Different hikes or one group going to a water park and the other cooking to a local playground?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 9:56 pm
I did already offer that the ones who stay home would get some sort of treat/reward. The ones who thought taking turns for trips was a good idea didn't need it, the ones who thought it was a bad idea were not convinced.

I don't know how unfair it might be. That's part of the problem. Today was a waterfall hike (I didn't go at all). But there might be a science museum, blueberry picking, or just going to a lake or playground. I doubt it will be a waterpark or amusement park, but the museum is considered nearly as exciting.
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:33 pm
a different angle to tackle is attitude, how our minds trick us re positive memories, and how perception affects reality. Some cognitive psychology basically.

Ie is the water park more fun if the lines are long, your feet hurt, your tznius outfit is uncomfortable and you're starving? Or is the local park more fun if you're with a friend, the weather is perfect, the snack is special and you brought an extra ball with you?

Also, is your brother SAYING he had a good time at the water park bc he knows he will get ganged up on for admitting that it sucked? Is he trying to make his sister jealous? Does he feel like he has to have had "the best time ever" bc its an objectively "better" trip?

These kinds of discussions.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 4:30 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Take turns.

Not every trip will be exciting for every kid, so it should work out.

Draw lots. I don't know how many kids, but say 8. So you have positions 1 through 8. First trip, 1 says yes or no. Then down through, to the number of slots you have.

Next trip, start with the first kid who didn't get a chance to choose for the last trip. Then anyone who said no to the last trip. Then last, those who went on the last one.

This way, over the summer, everyone gets a chance at a trip they want.


I would be wary about doing this. I know in my family there are some children who would consistently refuse the boring trips to make sure that their name was at the top of the list for the all the good trips, even if it meant they had less trips overall.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 5:15 am
Just do a rotation, age/gender appropriate so skip if need be and keep going by rote -- it is what it is and IY"H evens out over time.
Make it a teachable moment: Hashem Gives us what we need. And an opportunity to be not covet, be mevater, and show Hakaras Hatov, and Kibud Em.

Also would help them learn that favoritism is different than "fair" -- while favoritism is not good there no such thing as "fair" its like repeatedly looking at everyone elses portions and continually cutting the cake in attempts to even out the slices and reducing it all to crumbs
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 7:33 am
I like the idea of focusing on attitude, making it a teaching opportunity for "Gam zu l'tovah".

Help everyone see that this is ultimately in Hashem's hands. Offer small non-tangible rewards for anyone who comes up with 3 things they liked about the trip on the way home. And the other half comes up with 3 things they liked about being home.

Come up with special games or activities that are only allowed when the other half is on a trip, so that staying home is special, too.

Model any time you might feel a twinge of jealousy, how you change your thinking into appreciation for what you have.

None of this works 100% of the time. But it might help.
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nanny24/7




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 7:53 am
I don't believe there is an inherent value in Judaism as part of ahavas yisrael to not enjoy things you have to "not make others jealous". It might be good to discuss the value of not deliberately flaunting and boasting that "I want on the better trip, not you". But otherwise they should never feel they have to apologize for the fun and gifts or privileges they have for supposed ahavas Yisrael. Sounds more like socialism than Judaism. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 9:24 am
excellent point nanny
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Jul 09 2020, 9:53 am
Good point, as long as no one rubs it in to the others when they got the best trip of all.
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