Why is a rebbe not considered "working"

amother

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 1:47 pm

My dh works very hard as a rebbe. He also tutors and writes on the side. I also work and bh we are doing just fine - no tzedaka or government programs although we obviously don't own a yacht!

Why does frum society not consider a rebbe or klai kodesh jobs working. I find it very insulting and degrading. These men (or woman) are working hard to support their families the same way people that work as doctors lawyers musicians accountants real estate are.

amother

Red

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 1:55 pm

watergirl wrote:

I'm confused. Who does not consider these jobs as "working"?

I agree. “Rebbe” is a job title just like the other professions OP listed. 🤔

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 1:56 pm

In all sects of society, being a Rebbi and doing klei kodesh jobs (sofer, shochet, masgiach, etc) is definitely considered working. Even in my modern community, those who are in klei kodesh are looked up to as providing necessary services for the community.

It's the ones who don't hustle at all who are looked down up. The one who gets smicha but doesn't work at all and expects handouts, or the ones who (without medical, mental health, or other issues) only work part time on purpose and then complain about not having enough money and expects the community to support them.

But the rebbi who hustles part time jobs at different yeshivas, tutors bochurim at night, and moonlights as a mashgiach on Sunday?

Major respect.

zaq

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:00 pm

I think that the people who don't call this working are those who look down on working as something "less than." Like all those seminary girls who are looking for a learner and not, chas vesholom, a "working boy." Unlike being a truck driver or an accountant, working in klei kodesh is not "working" because the person is still involved in Torah and not anything secular.

I'm not saying I agree (I emphatically do not), but this is how I understand the reasoning.

Simple1

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:00 pm

Of course people consider Rebbe as working - if anything they get even more appreciation than non klei kodesh workers with gifts Chanuka and Purim etc.

The only differentiation I've understood is 1. that it's more insular than other work and you're not exposed to negative influences of the outside world and 2. financially, it's not a very profitable profession.

amother

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:05 pm

zaq wrote:

Exactly this.

When people on this site say all the time "its a working crowd" no they are not including the rebbe "in the working crowd" They mean people that work in non klai kodesh jobs.

amother

Rose

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Exactly this.

When people on this site say all the time "its a working crowd" no they are not including the rebbe "in the working crowd" They mean people that work in non klai kodesh jobs.

Um.you do know that is a compliment to your dh.

Your husband is looked up at by “ the working crowd”
Do you want your husband to be considered as part of “that” crowd?
Or do you take pride in the fact that your husband can bring in parnassa in the most glorious way?

Without knowing anything about you (obviously) whichever spectrum of Judaism you belong to, I think of your family differently than someone that is running a construction/ real estate/ online company.
I may be very wrong, and it is probably not the right way of putting people into boxes but ...

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:10 pm

When you say rebbe, I imagine you mean that he teaches Torah-correct? In a school or other setting?
How is that not working? Unless he is calling himself a "Rebbe" where he has simcha and sits in the Bais Midrash all day by himself learning at his leisure.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Exactly this.

When people on this site say all the time "its a working crowd" no they are not including the rebbe "in the working crowd" They mean people that work in non klai kodesh jobs.

Its just terminology, a way of classifying a certain type of person/family.

Although I understand why you would find the terminology offensive, nobody really thinks your DH is a loafer and doesn't support his family.

amother

Plum

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:32 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Exactly this.

When people on this site say all the time "its a working crowd" no they are not including the rebbe "in the working crowd" They mean people that work in non klai kodesh jobs.

I dont get it. Why are you insulted by it? They mean it in a positive way. They dont consider your husband as part of the typical working guy. They're not saying that your husband doesnt bring in parnassa.

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:40 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but your way of writing isn't so complimentary to what you describe as "the typical working guy"--this disdainful attitude actually feeds into the line of distinction and disdain drawn between "groups" that the OP is bemoaning.

Raisin

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 2:47 pm

I thought kli kodesh means a person who IS working, but just in a kodesh field. Mashgiach, teacher, Rav, shatnes tester, shochet, school administrator, chazan....

Not a kollel learner.

Having said that, I work in that field and people often think I don't work, but that is more to do with being a woman. When my husband does the identical thing, it's work. When I do it - I am doing it because I love it or something. Banging head

True, I am working part time but that is the only difference.

amother

Rose

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 3:09 pm

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Come on.
What does a rebbi day look like? What does he talk about all day? What are the conversations about during dinner? What are his constant thought processes?
( in the normal range)

And now the” working guy”
This is how planet earth spins
It it ideal? No. Would I have liked my world to have looked different maybe, but it’s not.

zaq

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 3:09 pm

Raisin wrote:

Having said that, I work in that field and people often think I don't work, but that is more to do with being a woman. When my husband does the identical thing, it's work. When I do it - I am doing it because I love it or something. Banging head

True, I am working part time but that is the only difference.

That is utterly insane. Even if you do love what you do--even if you were to say "I love my job so much, I should be paying my employer for the privilege"--why is that not working? Most people work harder at the things they love. What, it's not work unless you hate it?

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 3:12 pm

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Are you married to a "working guy"? Do you have teenage boys who may not be cut out to sit and learn all day? Or work in a classroom all day?
Your disdain is Crying

There are a lot of societal issues in the frum world precisely because of attitudes like yours. It's a real shame.

Raisin

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 3:15 pm

zaq wrote:

Because a lot of the things I am expected to do are things people often do for enjoyment or volunteering or just as nice members of society. Eg host shabbos guests, visiting lonely people, even attending shul.

It's fine, it just irritates me when people think I am a princess for having cleaning help or I sit around all day doing nothing. Although people who know me well know that that is not the case.

amother

Rose

Wed, Jul 22 2020, 4:25 pm

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Are you married to a "working guy"? Do you have teenage boys who may not be cut out to sit and learn all day? Or work in a classroom all day?
Your disdain is Crying

There are a lot of societal issues in the frum world precisely because of attitudes like yours. It's a real shame.

If we’re not being honest here, then we have nothing to discuss.
My wonderful dh works very hard, yes he learns too, a lot.
but his day unfortunately is not surrounded in Torah.
When he comes home, we discuss our day,
Me: the kids
Him:how were the clients, what happened with the banks, lawyers, taxes, deadlines....

Where do I talk about working people with disdain?
In my opinion a rebbi should be considered and held accountable to a higher standard.

Maybe op can tell me otherwise, do you think your home is different because dh is a rebbi