Dairy challah then meat shabbat meal. Is this weird?

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 12:51 am

recently, I've been making some dairy challahs (because they're yummy and fun... with various toppings). if we want to use a dairy challah: we make kiddush, have the dairy challahs, then switch out the plates/utensils/etc. and have a meat meal.

is this weird? anyone else do it or seen it? some people have the custom of doing dairy than meat on shavuot, so obviously it's not unheard of two days of the year and is halachically permissible if done properly.

it's just us because of the pandemic, and we probably wouldn't do this with guests due to people thinking it's weird and also the hassle of switching everything out with a big table.

malki2

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 12:56 am

Halachically, you may not be able to make dairy bread, because someone might mistake it with regular bread and eat it with meat. Especially challah, which is almost always eaten with meat. The way around it would be to make the bread shaped differently from regular bread.

Rappel

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 12:58 am

I'm sure you're already doing this, so I'm going to put this up as a general FYI:

Making meat or dairy bread is assur unless there is a CLEAR and RECOGNIZABLE siman visible on it - example, melted cheese on top. Dairy bread is delicious, but everyone needs to make sure it's halachic too!

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To answer the OP - no, we never did eat dairy challah before a meat meal. Our house was vegetarian for nearly two years, so I did occasionally make dairy breads, but I never made challah dairy because then it wouldn't be challah. Lucky Ashkies! Very Happy

ExtraCredit

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:00 am

It’s definitely unusual but if you enjoy it and you do like poster above mentioned, different shape etc, then why not?
You’re question is if it’s weird. It’s definitely unusual. But why should that be a factor at all if you like it this way? What’s wrong with being original?

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:02 am

malki2 wrote:

do you have a source on this? this seems weird.

also, how is the fear you state with making a dairy challah any different from the fear of making a parve challah in a dairy oven? plenty of people are vegetarians and make parve challah in dairy ovens. that parve challah is still dairy equipment and can't be eaten with meat. someone could mistake that dairy-equipment challah and eat it with meat.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I remember learning this too. This, for one, is not “weird”.
It’s to prevent others from assuming it’s pareve.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:08 am

Rappel wrote:

Our house was vegetarian for nearly two years, so I did occasionally make dairy breads, but I never made challah dairy because then it wouldn't be challah. Lucky Ashkies! Very Happy

I also don't get this. can you explain. why wouldn't it be challah?

ExtraCredit

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:10 am

QueensMama wrote:

This is clear halacha: one may not bake dairy bread unless certain conditions are met.

see details here:

https://www.ok.org/kosherspiri.....milk.

Good job!

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:13 am

QueensMama wrote:

This is clear halacha: one may not bake dairy bread unless certain conditions are met.

see details here:

https://www.ok.org/kosherspiri.....milk.

very interesting. I just read. thanks for this. curious to ask our rav where he holds on the various positions discussed in this

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:16 am

the article says:

Quote:

The Pischei Teshuva quotes the Maharit as saying that baked goods that are sweet and not typically eaten with meat are allowed to be made with milk. Accordingly, most pastries or Danishes are permitted, even when made with milk or butter. Only those that would typically be eaten together with meat are prohibited.

does this apply to a (dairy) chocolate challah with chocolate chips on top? yes people make parve chocolate challahs, but people aren't typically eating parve chocolate challah together with meat, as far as I know.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:20 am

According to the zohar you should wait an hour between dairy and meat, but this isn't everyone's custom. It is halacha to change the tablecloth, rinse your mouth and wash your hands, though.

https://www.kosher.com/learn/l.....ohar.

Rappel

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:30 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I also don't get this. can you explain. why wouldn't it be challah?

Sefardim are very specific about what makes hamotzi. So sweet challah, spiced challah, challah with milk in the dough, egg challah... Even matzah, except for the the first night of pesach: all are mezonot.

So no chocolate chip challah for us, unless I'm willing to do twice the work and also make hamotzi bread, which I'm generally not. Laugh

causemommysaid

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:57 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

very interesting. I just read. thanks for this. curious to ask our rav where he holds on the various positions discussed in this

I am pretty sure any rov will say it's not allowed.

It is straight up clear cut halacha.

Change the shape of the bread and ur good.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:06 am

causemommysaid wrote:

I am pretty sure any rov will say it's not allowed.

It is straight up clear cut halacha.

Change the shape of the bread and ur good.

change the shape to what -- anything but a traditional braided challah? I don't make traditional braided challah for shabbats if it's just us. I make small-ish "challah knots." I've been making both parve savory challah knots in the meat oven, and dairy sweet challah knots in the dairy oven. each one is individually wrapped and labeled.

am I good because neither looks like traditional braided challah?

Mayflower

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:07 am

Even with the challah in a different shape, I'm not sure it's allowed.

On Shavuos, people make a dairy Kiddush, make a brocha achrona, wait half an hour and then wash for the meal. It's not dairy and meat in the same meal.

I don't think you can go straight from the dairy challah to the rest of the meat meal. If you bentch after the challah, wait a bit and then eat the rest of the meal (making separate brachos) , that would be fine.

amother

White

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:09 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Not everyone holds this way. Many hold that if the oven wasn't used for dairy in the past 24 hours it's fine.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:14 am

Mayflower wrote:

On Shavuos, people make a dairy Kiddush, make a brocha achrona, wait half an hour and then wash for the meal. It's not dairy and meat in the same meal.

I don't think you can go straight from the dairy challah to the rest of the meat meal. If you bentch after the challah, wait a bit and then eat the rest of the meal (making separate brachos) , that would be fine.

you've got two different issues going on here: 1) whether one needs to wait between dairy then meat, and 2) whether one needs to bentch and then make a new brachos if going from dairy challah to a meat meal.

as to #1, this entirely depends on whether your custom is to wait between dairy and meat. if it's not your custom, there's no need to wait at all. either way, whether you wait 1 hr or not at all, it's got nothing to do with #2.

as for #2, interesting question. is there clear halacha that one needs to bentch and then make a new brachos if going from dairy challah to a meat meal? any source?

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:17 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

Not everyone holds this way. Many hold that if the oven wasn't used for dairy in the past 24 hours it's fine.

well, in the hypothetical I laid out, even if one holds that way, how is someone going to know that the parve challah cooked in a dairy oven was NOT used for dairy in the past 24 hrs? thus, isn't there the same fear that someone could mistake that dairy-equipment challah -- what was made in a dairy oven the same day as actual dairy -- and eat it with meat?

malki2

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 2:21 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Even if such bread would be eaten with meat, I think that it technically would not be assur.