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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
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amother
Bisque
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 Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:29 am
| amother [ Seafoam ] wrote: | | My life wouldn't be as restrictive. As much as living a torah life is beautiful, it's a lot. My DH is obsessed with learning. He gets stressed when he doesn't learn. It's his entire life. He is a great father but he always says when he helps how he is giving up so much for us. So mainly I would want a family, with less kids (7 is way too many although I love them all. it's a lot) and a DH who would sit down and watch tv at the end of the day, not stay up till 4 am doing another daf. |
I'm in a lot of groups with non-Jewish moms and a common complaint is that their DHs watch too much TV. With a daf gemara he is learning and there is a higher purpose, it's not a waste of time. TV is a complete waste of time, so a DH who is up watching until 2am makes his wife feel really resentful. And living for/ being obsessed with learning is much more worthwhile than living for/ being obsessed with sports.
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amother
Navy
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:40 am
| bababebe wrote: | I would be living by myself, free to act as I wish and express myself without having to "fit into a box".
I would have a degree in history or art or poli-sci and optimally working in a museum or research or teaching history.
I would take vacations and/or sabbaticals as often as possible, and spend them living between people of different cultures in different countries. |
Check this women out
Dr Tamara Morsel Eisenberg
https://www.ou.org/women/video/
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amother
Brunette
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:53 am
| sequoia wrote: | I don’t drive.
Male friends... I dunno, from college, Israel activism, hobbies? Where do you meet girl friends? |
Would you consider learning to drive now or are you unable to due to medical reasons?
Yes, I have male friends from College etc but am only in touch with them online, not IRL. I don’t meet female friends because I have no interest.
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amother
Amethyst
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:17 am
| amother [ Tan ] wrote: | I agree that exotic travel or a high powered career are as difficult to attain for a nonJewish inner city kid as for a 24 year old Yeshivish mom of three.
I do believe most people are imagining themselves in an alternate reality of being born to a middle class family. They are taking their situation and trying to remove the 'Jewish' or the frum without removing everything else.
If we start changing people's economic status in childhood, changing their class, changing their race or country of origin, then the question starts to lose focus or meaning. |
I agree. I grew up OOT, FFB, BY education, and I got a very good degree, worked in corporate America for years, lived and worked in NYC, traveled to exotic locations, and then got married and had children. I was always frum and SS/SK.
It's not being frum that restricts this, it's the culture of where some of you happen to have been born. I have non jewish friends and colleagues who have never traveled outside of the US.
The only things that my Jewish- ness has restricted is food when I travel and limitations of Shabbat (need to be near a chabad or at least shabbat friendly accommodations) and I would travel more with DH if we didnt feel bad leaving the kids over Shabbat and it's harder to take time off during the week.
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amother
Slategray
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:23 am
Here's what my non Jewish relatives my age and childhood friends are doing now.
First one, mom is a lawyer, dad works in investing. She went to Brown and now works as a TV producer, which is not at all a glamorous job in real life. She says that her career is more important than a relationship right now, but as she's 30, I have to wonder. She is a decent, kind person.
Second is the brother of the first. He's a singer/actor whose dream is to be on Broadway. I don't really understand it, but apparently he's up to his third musical theater school all on his parents' dime. Not to mention all the musical theater camps and lessons he's taken. He's kind of self obsessed, but popular and well- liked. Never had a serious relationship.
Third is their sister. She's in her mid twenties, and has no interest in anything except tumblr and reddit and other online forums. Dresses androgynously, no friends in real life, I'm honestly worried about her.
Fourth grew up in a single parent home. She is very pretty and good hearted and has been taken advantage of in past relationships. Right now she's not interested in men. She went to community college, works for an insurance company, and all her money goes to her passions; comic con, anime, and cosplaying. And her cat.
Fifth grew up in lower middle class household in Brooklyn. Dad was a cop. She was popular, charismatic, and fearless. Had the foulest mouth starting age 10. My parents stopped allowing me to visit on my own by the time she was 11. s-xually active by age 12. Right now she is estranged from her parents so I don't know a lot about her, but last I saw her she was obese and just as foul mouthed. Oh and she's an open anti-semite...
Sixth one grew up with his parents divorced, but still living together as roommates. They would often bring home girlfriends/boyfriends. He is really sweet and we have the closest relationship of all my cousins. He dropped out of a law enforcement college because his dream was to be an actor. He's now a temp and an extra on television shows. A few years ago, he went to the Ukraine, found a woman, brought her to the states, and married her. They had a son and then she divorced him and moved to the midwest.
Seventh one is his younger sister. She never graduated high school, lives with her parents, works as a cashier and has a cat. She's a talented amateur artist and is always posting inspirational quotes on Facebook.
Eighth one grew up very conservative. Dad in politics, stay at home homeschooling mother, living in a rural area. She's gorgeous and brilliant. Went to her state college, had series of eclectic jobs, from college teacher, financial advisor, house painter, tour guide, etc. She married a Jewish man (lo aleinu) and passed her bar exam last year. She'll probably go into politics and be in the Cabinet some day.
The rest of my relatives/friends are either in high school, college, or live in a different country.
If I were not Jewish, I hope I would be like eighth one, but I would have probably ended up like the fifth. As a kid, she was the one person I desperately wanted to be like. Baruch Hashem my parents prevented that.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:32 am
I have a very good BT friend I asked her about her classmates since it seems like everyone wants to play it out as secular world is bad. She went to an elite private school, upper class socioeconomically, etc
Cousin is 35 and nets over 50 million per year having gone into the family business. He is not the brightest so he attended a regular college.
Cousins Sister had a phd in anthropology and is very artsy. She gets a monthly stipend to support her and is following her dreams.
Classmates - People in their low 30s.
1. Majority have advance degrees, very many from Ivies or top colleges, real careers where they followed their passions not necessarily money making.
2. Some went into typical careers like lawyer doctor accountant PA and were helped out by family with successful practices or careers.
3. Around 10-15% Trust fund kids who didn't love college or were fair students. Some dabble in real estate others travel the world.
4. 1 or 2 out of a 150 maybe dealt with a drug problem.
5. 5 or 6 are married and 2 have kids.
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avrahamama
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:50 am
This thread has been the perfect thread for today. Truly depressing. "Oh if only I wasnt a Jew..."
I've seen people from different walks of life. From trailer parks to penthouses overlooking Central Park.
The happy ones were the ones who put H as their priority always.
Shiviti Hashem Lnegdi Tamid.
A life without H is not ideal. Even if you went to Harvard. Even if you are running on the beach with your trusty Golden Retriever. Even if you have a house in the UES, and the Hamptons, and are considered influential in your field of work.
A day even an ordinary boring one without Hashem is empty. A wedding, a life cycle event without Hashem ... Is just a party and marker in time instead of an opportunity to bring down the shechinah.
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amother
Green
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:54 am
| Quote: |
Post Today at 10:32 am
I have a very good BT friend I asked her about her classmates since it seems like everyone wants to play it out as secular world is bad. She went to an elite private school, upper class socioeconomically, etc
Cousin is 35 and nets over 50 million per year having gone into the family business. He is not the brightest so he attended a regular college.
Cousins Sister had a phd in anthropology and is very artsy. She gets a monthly stipend to support her and is following her dreams.
Classmates - People in their low 30s.
1. Majority have advance degrees, very many from Ivies or top colleges, real careers where they followed their passions not necessarily money making.
2. Some went into typical careers like lawyer doctor accountant PA and were helped out by family with successful practices or careers.
3. Around 10-15% Trust fund kids who didn't love college or were fair students. Some dabble in real estate others travel the world.
4. 1 or 2 out of a 150 maybe dealt with a drug problem.
5. 5 or 6 are married and 2 have kids. |
Sooooo, life is good for rich people?
Nothing to do with being Jewish.
There are rich frum people.
There are poor non-Jews.
No guarantees that by being not frum or not Jewish you’ll make a lot of money. You might be even poorer than you are now.
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amother
Purple
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:14 am
It’s sad to see how many resent Jewish life.
I’m in my mid 20s so I’d probably still be single and in college focusing on a career. Instead, I’m married to a wonderful man and pregnant with my first child. And I don’t resent it because I made the choices I made. I chose to marry at a young age and get pregnant. There are many frum girls who chose to focus on a career before getting married too.
Editing to add-to those so uncomfortable in summer clothing-imagine having to shave, self tan, and make sure your entire body looks great every day. Now I get to hide my cellulite, birth marks, or whatever else behind my modest clothing. And a wig? I have great hair but absolutely no patience to style it every day
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:25 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | | Quote: |
Post Today at 10:32 am
I have a very good BT friend I asked her about her classmates since it seems like everyone wants to play it out as secular world is bad. She went to an elite private school, upper class socioeconomically, etc
Cousin is 35 and nets over 50 million per year having gone into the family business. He is not the brightest so he attended a regular college.
Cousins Sister had a phd in anthropology and is very artsy. She gets a monthly stipend to support her and is following her dreams.
Classmates - People in their low 30s.
1. Majority have advance degrees, very many from Ivies or top colleges, real careers where they followed their passions not necessarily money making.
2. Some went into typical careers like lawyer doctor accountant PA and were helped out by family with successful practices or careers.
3. Around 10-15% Trust fund kids who didn't love college or were fair students. Some dabble in real estate others travel the world.
4. 1 or 2 out of a 150 maybe dealt with a drug problem.
5. 5 or 6 are married and 2 have kids. |
Sooooo, life is good for rich people?
Nothing to do with being Jewish.
There are rich frum people.
There are poor non-Jews.
No guarantees that by being not frum or not Jewish you’ll make a lot of money. You might be even poorer than you are now. |
What does this have to do with being rich. I was adding to the fact that secular people don't all run off and get married. Almost every secular person I know and I know many have better lives than the frum ppl I know and are generally more content, nicer individuals, regardless of socioeconomic status. Most are middle to upper middle class that I knowm
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amother
Green
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:25 am
| Quote: |
Editing to add-to those so uncomfortable in summer clothing-imagine having to shave, self tan, and make sure your entire body looks great every day. Now I get to hide my cellulite, birth marks, or whatever else behind my modest clothing. And a wig? I have great hair but absolutely no patience to style it every day |
Some people care more about their appearance than others. Not everyone is shaving and tanning and styling every day, whether they’re tznius or not.
Some of the stereotyping on this thread is ridiculous.
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amother
Green
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:26 am
| amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote: | | What does this have to do with being rich. I was adding to the fact that secular people don't all run off and get married. Almost every secular person I know and I know many have better lives than the frum ppl I know and are generally more content, nicer individuals, regardless of socioeconomic status. Most are middle to upper middle class that I knowm |
Well, then, you “know” only a very narrow slice of society.
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amother
Tan
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:27 am
| amother [ Purple ] wrote: |
Editing to add-to those so uncomfortable in summer clothing-imagine having to shave, self tan, and make sure your entire body looks great every day. Now I get to hide my cellulite, birth marks, or whatever else behind my modest clothing. And a wig? I have great hair but absolutely no patience to style it every day |
The vast majority of secular people don't self tan. Most of my old friends and most of my family is secular and absolutely none of them have ever self-tanned.
Shave? Just look at the threads here. To be honest, IME from this board at least, there is more of an obsession with being smooth and hairless in some very RW frum circles than in some secular circles.
You can dress modestly as a secular person too. In fact, for me, long pants are so much better at hiding problem calves than skirts. I don't like wearing floor length skirts all the time, and pants just do the job much better than skirts which reveal the calf.
And styling hair every day? Maybe the circles who self-tan do that. Many women just air-dry their hair or wear it in a ponytail.
Tzniut dress has its advantages, but it is silly to imagine that it is as comfortable as secular dress.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:40 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | | Well, then, you “know” only a very narrow slice of society. |
Highly doubtful. I've actually travelled the world so I'm addressing the American middle class and they are way happier nicer better middos than the rw frum world I pretend to be part of.
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sequoia
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:50 am
You can dress modestly without a “uniform.”
And no one looks askance at you.
Literally no one has ever asked me, “Do you ever wear pants?” or “Why not?”
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ExtraCredit
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 12:01 pm
| amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote: | | Highly doubtful. I've actually travelled the world so I'm addressing the American middle class and they are way happier nicer better middos than the rw frum world I pretend to be part of. |
Can we start changing the view on the rw frum world by working on our own middos and happiness? So when others interact with us they see that such people actually do exist!
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giselle
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 12:13 pm
| amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote: | | What does this have to do with being rich. I was adding to the fact that secular people don't all run off and get married. Almost every secular person I know and I know many have better lives than the frum ppl I know and are generally more content, nicer individuals, regardless of socioeconomic status. Most are middle to upper middle class that I knowm |
That’s so sad. I think I have a much better and happier life than most of the secular people I know. Also, while of course there exist frum people who are not nice and secular people who are nice, overall the frum people I know have much better middos.
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amother
Babyblue
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 12:36 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | | Please elaborate! I am very interested in what you have done with your life |
The only interesting thing we’ve done is move back to my husband’s home country lol. Other than that, we lived (and still do) a relatively boring, middle-to-upper-middle class life. We got to do a lot of things without the usual worry about kosher food, minyan, etc. But we weren’t out there attending red carpet events lol. We honestly looked like (and probably still do) any random person you’d see on the street. Well, minus the kippot of my husband and sons.
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amother
Green
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Thu, Jul 30 2020, 12:43 pm
| Quote: |
Highly doubtful. I've actually travelled the world so I'm addressing the American middle class and they are way happier nicer better middos than the rw frum world I pretend to be part of. |
If most of the people you know are middle class or upper middle class, then yes, you’ve only experienced a narrow part of the world.
I’ve worked and gone to school with a whole mixed bag of people from all different walks of life.
In every group there are nice, kind people and in every group there are false, nasty, unkind people.
The difference is that in some societies niceness and kindness are taught as values and in others they’re not.
And some societies teach kindness towards certain types of people and not others.
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