If you weren't Jewish, how would your life be different?

amother

Coral

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 5:48 am

I would be wearing shorts and revealing clothes (love them) and I wouldve gone to harvard and become something very cool, lawyer, or a member of the intelligence FBI etc, always been my dream...

Altho I once heard a shiur, that if we were given 24 hours to become a non jew, what would you do? And the rav said that really, we should answer that we'd become a ger in those 24 hours. Bec then it shows that we really believe in Hashem and understand that Judaism is the only way of life that gives purpose etc

amother

Plum

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 5:56 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Altho I once heard a shiur, that if we were given 24 hours to become a non jew, what would you do? And the rav said that really, we should answer that we'd become a ger in those 24 hours. Bec then it shows that we really believe in Hashem and understand that Judaism is the only way of life that gives purpose etc

I'm a convert and if I was given 24 hours to be a non-Jew again, I"d sit down to a big ole plate of lasagna, Italian ice-cream, belgian chocolates, chicken melts.... then run along a beach with the wind streaming through my hair and dive into the sea wearing a normal swimsuit

and THEN I'd convert again Wink

amother

Denim

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:02 am

Its interesting because my husband and I have the "what if we werent frum" conversation at least once a month and sometimes once a week.
I am only frum because that is how I was raised and got married and raised children and that is my life now. I would never uproot my family from the life that they love.
But if I were not frum I would not be living in a religious community, I would wear shorts and tank tops in the summer, more revealing clothing in the winter, I would travel to places that kashrus didnt matter, Id go to the beach every weekend, and I would definitely not keep taharas hamishpacha (no need and no desire). I would live a more open type of life style.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:07 am

I would have dated for years, moved in together and then gotten married. This would have ensured that we can get along and respect each other. Pre martial relations would have been amazing, ruling out anyone I'm not compatible with (I with I was married to a man that loves to take care of me, instead of being married to someone that I have to take care of)

I wouldn't have been pushed to date at 19 because of younger siblings. In the non Jewish world no one cares who gets married first.

amother

Coral

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:10 am

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Im with you at the beach!! Wish I could just lie at the beach with friends wearing nearly nothing...

amother

Brunette

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:11 am

ora_43 wrote:

If you're doing it, it makes sense that many of the people you meet are also full-time travelers.

But they're still a small minority. Like, in a given high school class of a few hundred people, you're only going to see 1-2 people if that who travel full-time into their 30s. Most people are married in their 30s Jewish or not, and most people struggle to pay for lots of overseas travel even if they have a full-time job. Under 15% of Americans travel overseas at all in a given year, let alone do it full-time.

(And then on the other end of things, there are also frum families that travel. Obviously harder than traveling alone, but not impossible. I remember seeing an article a while back about a frum Israeli family with several kids that moved to India for a few months. But you pretty much need to have either a well-paying job, or a job that can easily be done remotely.)

(eta: I'm not amother-Tan, but I agree with pretty much everything she's said on this thread.)

The people I met were professional but they were able to eg dedicate winter to skiing by working harder in the summer. Or they sold their condo to pay for a lifestyle that allowed them to travel. It was a choice. Obviously if I were single and unmarried I would meet other like people. I wasn’t married in my 30s by choice. I never wanted marriage or babies. However, I became frum and this mindset isn’t compatible with a frum lifestyle. That didn’t change my core, that I am happier living the life of a single person. Sure from a Yiddishkeit point of view, my life is “richer” but my core being isn’t. We do travel as a family but it definitely isn’t the same.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:29 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Yes, obviously there are secular people like that, who love their lifestyle.

I was just saying that it's the minority of secular people who live like that. You actually lived it, so you are a different case. But a lot of FFB people here seem to be fantasizing that if they were only secular, they would be single, child-free, travelling around the world f/t at the age of 35 or 40. And the truth is, as Ora said, that most secular people above the age of 30 are not living that lifestyle.

Things like going to the beach every weekend/living out of the city/having more freedom to wear what you want - those are common things among non Jews/secular. Travelling the world f/t is probably more of a fantasy.

(And travelling for winter skiing is not the same at all. You can live a perfectly bourgeois life and spend winters elsewhere).

I guess what I'm saying is that most non-Jews/secular do not live bohemian, care-free lives full of travel. Most have a mortgage, a spouse or an ex or both, two children plus or minus, and a job to report to in the morning.

amother

Pewter

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:41 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is that most non-Jews/secular do not live bohemian, care-free lives full of travel. Most have a mortgage, a spouse or an ex or both, two children plus or minus, and a job to report to in the morning.

True. I'm a convert and have a good relationship with my sister. Frum people are always surprised to hear how similar our lives really are... She married her first boyfriend (no sleeping around or partying or doing drugs), has a stable career, four kids (granted, the fourth wasn't planned) and, well, a normal moral compass. I do not think her life is meaningless at all.

If I hadn't converted, I probably would have spent more time abroad (either studying abroad for a year or two, or traveling for a year or two after my studies) and then settle down somewhere. Very boring, I know...

ETA: the biggest difference (on a gashmiyus level) would probably be where I lived. A lot of my non-Jewish coworkers live in the suburbs and have huge gardens, sometimes with a pool...And their houses are in the same price range as my little town house with tiny backyard.

Also, the ability to eat out anywhere would be a big difference, both in everyday life and when picking vacation destinations.

amother

Brunette

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:53 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

I think it would be better if the title said “if you weren’t frum” versus not Jewish. Lots of secular Jews have much more freedom because they have smaller family sizes and are not constrained by Kashrus issues when travelling.

It is funny that you said bourgeois as a lot of the people I met skiing were far from that including myself! Some were construction workers who had little if any work in harsh winters anyway, so worked double in the Summer. Most of the people I was with did indeed have mortgages and other adult commitments. Just not children or a spouse. Many people with us also had children and spouses but they had a lot more constraints about what they could and could not do. And I was mostly talking about travelling to the beach for the weekend like you say. I didn’t necessarily mean travelling full time although I do have a few friends who did that in their late 30s/early 40s for a few years. They gave up good jobs and property to do it.

I think it is a different question for FFBs and BTs. Some BTs might disagree with me and will be happy they turned their backs on their non-Frum lifestyle. For me, I know what I am missing and am not certain I made the right choice. THM has been an absolute nightmare for me. I know what it is like to not keep it at all as I was s*xually active before keeping frum. It hasn’t enhanced my marriage at all and for myself and DH, is definitely detrimental to our relationship. But I chose to be frum and there’s nothing I can do about my choice now.

amother

Brunette

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 6:56 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I wouldn't pick a neighborhood to live in because it's close to shuls, schools, kosher food, etc. I would be able to wear sleeveless, shorts, etc. in the heat. When I go out and I want to eat something, I'd go into any restaurant.

I miss all that so much.

When we are on vacation we basically have two choices: go to a non-Jewish area and bring loads of food or go to a Jewish area where we can eat out but bump into loads of people. I don’t like either of these scenarios as for me, part of the break is needing to be away from the community.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 7:40 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

"If you weren't frum" would be a bit odd, though, since any one of us could stop being frum at any moment. If I didn't want to be frum, tomorrow I could be sitting on the beach in jeans and a tank top, eating a seafood platter. But I'm here instead.

It's like saying "what would you do if you weren't you."

But "if you weren't Jewish" - that allows people who believe in Torah to imagine living a different life, without the mental difficulty of imagining ourselves being, essentially, people who think and believe very differently than we actually do. I could be exactly who I am now, with my current beliefs, and yet not keep kosher because I wouldn't be obligated to keep kosher.

chanchy123

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 7:58 am

ora_43 wrote:

My (frum) neighbors actually took a 6-month trip to India with their four kids. They are not wealthy and did not work remotely. They rented out their home and lived frugally in India, they both were very young when they got married and decided that they didn’t want to miss out on the opportunity they never had as young adults to travel. This interestingly ties in with the OP being Jewish and observant and even having several children does not have to come at the expense of your life’s dream to travel the world.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 8:04 am

Quote:

Hypothetically if you weren't Jewish, how do you think/imagine your life would be different (from ages 18+, keeping the same childhood - minus the fact that you where jewish )?

I would not get married. Maybe a boy freind at some point? Not sure.

I would live in the woods in a shack and do all the Buddhist and other kinds of practices.

I would be part of the Red Cross. I would take some training to be a field nurse not as a career just enough to be able to travel to countries where I can assist with Healthcare.

I would be a one on one counselor to disadvantaged children in orphanages.

I would teach myself as many languages as possible so I can interact with as many people as possible.

I would never stop searching for the truth and for meaning.

amother

Brunette

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 8:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

I definitely don’t feel I can answer the question then. Sorry, I probably shouldn’t have joined the thread. 🙈 I can’t imagine not being Jewish. I can imagine being a non-practicing Jew as I have been that.

I understand that I could eat bacon cheeseburgers (although as a vegetarian I wouldn’t) and have Santa in my life. I would love not keeping THM. I can’t imagine keeping Easter not Pesach though, it is really hard for me to envisage.

amother

Coral

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 8:13 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Is there no career tarck that you wish you could take, yet being a frum woman has kind of hindered you?

As much as I would love to wear shorts, I really would like to switch careers. Yet have you ever heard of a frum mother being a police officer or member of intelligence??????
Especially where I live, career choices for frum women are extremely limited. Extremely.
And if you do know how I can join the police force, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!

chanchy123

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 8:16 am

Ok so is ignoring the fact that of I weren’t Jewish I’d never have been born or met my husband - my life would probably be the same, I agree I’d probably never had as many children if I weren’t Jewish. I imagine I’d be married have several children work in this type of job.
But being Jewish is such a big part of my identity, what makes me keep going and doing what I do, living where I am, raising my family. I guess if I weren’t Jewish I’d fill my life with meaning in some other way but I’m so Happy Hashem put me where I am and gave me the merit of being Jewish. Yes, I would love to eat whatever I wanted, I could do without covering my hair, nida, and maybe Shabbat only once every other week - but as a package deal, I think it’s pretty good. I’m willing to make those sacrifices to get to be part of Am Yisrael and it’s historical divine mission.