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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note
Why do people say this?
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:26 am
- The edict for the expulsion of Jews was issued on July 18, 1290 was 3 Elul, not Tisha B’Av.
- The edict allowing for the expulsion of Spain was written in March of 1492, and the Jews had until July 31, which was 29 Av, to be out of Spain, not Tisha B’Av.
- Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated on June 28, 1914 which was 4 Tamuz, not Tisha B’Av.
- Hitler and his army invaded Poland on September 1 and 2, 1939, which was 17 and 18 Elul, not Tisha B’Av.


Why do people keep saying that these things all happened on Tisha B’Av, when it’s so easy to look it up and see that that’s not true? When the spies came back from seeing Israel and the Jews cried, God basically told them “you cried over nothing? I’ll give you a reason to cry.” Yes, bad things happened on this day, but do we really need to cry over nothing, pretending things happened when they really didn’t?

Also, as an aside, aside from the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash, is there anything anyone knows of that historically DID happen on Tisha B’av?


Last edited by Ema of 5 on Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:35 am
I know 9 Av as the day of the destruction of both beis hamikdosh, and that's why we fast.
Loosing that and going back to galus is definitely a reason to mourn.
I'm not sure where you got the other events from.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:41 am
amother [ Red ] wrote:
I know 9 Av as the day of the destruction of both beis hamikdosh, and that's why we fast.
Loosing that and going back to galus is definitely a reason to mourn.
I'm not sure where you got the other events from.

What do you mean “where I got them from”? I looked up the dates of the other events. I have heard plenty of people say, and have seen plenty of people post, things along the lines of “Tisha B’Av is historically a tragic day for the Jews” and then they go on to list things that happened throughout the years on Tisha B’Av. The events I listed above are usually on the list, but that is historically inaccurate.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:46 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
- The edict for the expulsion of Jews was issued on July 18, 1290 was 3 Elul, not Tisha B’Av.
- The edict allowing for the expulsion of Spain was written in March of 1492, and the Jews had until July 31, which was 29 Av, to be out of Spain, not Tisha B’Av.
- Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated on June 28, 1914 which was 4 Tamuz, not Tisha B’Av.
- Hitler and his army invaded Poland on September 1 and 2, 1941, which was 17 and 18 Elul, not Tisha B’Av.


Why do people keep saying that these things all happened on Tisha B’Av, when it’s so easy to look it up and see that that’s not true? When the spies came back from seeing Israel and the Jews cried, God basically told them “you cried over nothing? I’ll give you a reason to cry.” Yes, bad things happened on this day, but do we really need to cry over nothing, pretending things happened when they really didn’t?

Also, as an aside, aside from the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash, is there anything anyone knows of that historically DID happen on Tisha B’av?


Where did you hear that those things happened on Tisha B'av? I never heard that.
I was taught that the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed on 9 Av and from THAT comes all thr tragedy of 2,000 years. That's why we discuss all the tradegies in Kinnos. Because they happened because we are in golus. Not because they happened on 9 Av
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:54 am
We are crying for the Beis Hamikdash being burnt.
We are crying for Hashem who is like a parent who had to send his children away and is yearning for his children to come home again.
And we are crying for all the hardships the Jewish people suffered throughout the years of being in Galus.
On this day, we beg Hashem to take us home again and rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. When we will finally have our 3rd and final Beis Hamikdash, the Jewish nation won’t have to go through suffering anymore.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 8:55 am
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Where did you hear that those things happened on Tisha B'av? I never heard that.
I was taught that the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed on 9 Av and from THAT comes all thr tragedy of 2,000 years. That's why we discuss all the tradegies in Kinnos. Because they happened because we are in golus. Not because they happened on 9 Av

I always heard over the years that things happened ON Tisha B’Av. I’m happy to see people never heard that.
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gila-rina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:00 am
Don't know about other dates, but you definitely have wrong dates for the the Hitler/Poland event.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:09 am
gila-rina wrote:
Don't know about other dates, but you definitely have wrong dates for the the Hitler/Poland event.


Google tells me that it was September 1, 1939, not the date that OP put. But Google also says that was the 17th of elul.
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rising hero




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:15 am
A quick google search shows the first two did happen on or around 9 av.

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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:18 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
- The edict for the expulsion of Jews was issued on July 18, 1290 was 3 Elul, not Tisha B’Av.
- The edict allowing for the expulsion of Spain was written in March of 1492, and the Jews had until July 31, which was 29 Av, to be out of Spain, not Tisha B’Av.


The Hebrew calendar app that I use (hebdate) puts these 2 days in Av.

It could be that it doesn't account for the switch from Julian to Gregorian, but I don't think your date of 3 Elul being in mid July would make sense either.





That being said, the gemarah talks about 5 things that did happen on Tisha B'av.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:18 am
Even tragic events that didn’t happen on 9 av we remember them today.
June 17, 1242 - 17 Tammuz - sefarim were burned in France. Kinnos are read on Tisha B’av.
The book burning in Italy in 1553 was on Rosh hashana but we still recite kinnos today.
I think it’s facsinating how the non Jews (or converts from Judaism) chose these Jewish dates for these events - a tragic fast day or the holy new year.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:22 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
Google tells me that it was September 1, 1939, not the date that OP put. But Google also says that was the 17th of elul.

I’m sorry, you’re right I accidentally wrote the wrong year. Is was 1939 not 1941. Rosy her way, ot was not Tisha B’Av.
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aliavi




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:22 am
We can remember all of these calamities on 9th of Av even if the event wasn’t final on this date. We do have consideration for how many days of mourning people should go through. I was taught that some events in our calendar are put into motion or advanced on the dates we remember them. I’m sure there is a shiur somewhere that covers your question thoroughly. Google isn’t the best source for Jewish history.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:24 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
Google tells me that it was September 1, 1939, not the date that OP put. But Google also says that was the 17th of elul.

I corrected the year.
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aliavi




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:27 am
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
I think it’s facsinating how the non Jews (or converts from Judaism) chose these Jewish dates for these events - a tragic fast day or the holy new year.


You’re describing the Jewish concept of time being cyclical and what we know about din being infused into dates in different generations.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:28 am
I always learned they were on tisha bav. Question- how can July 18 fall out in Elul?
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rising hero




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:28 am
July 28, 1914. Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia, beginning World War I.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:29 am
Also it says in the arbarbanel that he allowed music to be played to loft the spirits of the Jewish people even though it as tisha bav.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:31 am
https://m.jpost.com/israel-new.....98199

Expulsion from Spain -
“On July 31, 1492 (the 9th of Av that year), practicing Jews living in Spain had to make their final decision: Convert to Christianity or leave the country.”

1290 expulsion from England “The Hebrew date on which this edict was announced was Tisha Be’Av”

Spies returned from eretz yisroel

Treblinka-
“On July 23, 1942, Treblinka death camp, which was located in a forest northeast of Warsaw, began its operations as a death camp and continued operating until October 1943. The Hebrew date that operations began at the death camp was Tisha Be’Av.“

Ww1-
“On August 1, 1914 (the 9th of Av), Germany declared war on Russia opening the gates of fire, fury and death that was the First World War.”

Bar kochva massacre

Plowing of the beis hamikdash field

Destruction of the first beis hamikdash

Destruction of second beis hamikdash
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:31 am
I’m using the calendar on my phone. Perhaps it is wrong.
I understand mourning these things today. Today is a day of mourning, and we mourn ALL tragedies. That wasn’t what I was asking though. I have specifically seen and heard that these events happened on Tisha B’Av. My question is why....
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