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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:33 am

Ok I just converted the dates on google.

July 18, 1290- 9 Av very clear.

July 31, 1492 - 7 Av so I wonder what the Abarbanel meant? Maybe because it was in the 9 days?

Regarding ww1 you are correct but maybe they go according to the date that it actually broke out not when he was assassinated.

Ww2- never heard that was a thing.

rising hero

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:35 am

cbsp wrote:

...
That being said, the gemarah talks about 5 things that did happen on Tisha B'av.

Hilchos Ta'aniyos 5:3

ותשעה באב חמשה דברים אירעו בו נגזר על ישראל במדבר שלא יכנסו לארץ וחרב הבית בראשונה ובשנייה ונלכדה עיר גדולה וביתר שמה והיו בה אלפים ורבבות מישראל והיה להם מלך גדול ודמו כל ישראל וגדולי החכמים שהוא מלך המשיח ונפל ביד הרומיים ונהרגו כולם והיתה צרה גדולה כמו חורבן בית המקדש ובו ביום המוכן לפורענות חרש טורנוסרופוס הרשע את ההיכל ואת סביביו לקיים מה שנאמר ציון שדה תחרש

On the Ninth of Av, five tragedies occurred:

It was decreed that the Jews in the desert would not enter Eretz Yisrael;

The First and the Second Temples were destroyed;

A large city named Betar was captured. Thousands and myriads of Jews inhabited it. They were ruled by a great king whom the entire Jewish people and the leading Sages considered to be the Messianic king. The city fell to the Romans and they were all slain, causing a national catastrophe equivalent to that of the Temple's destruction.

On that day designated for retribution, the wicked Tineius Rufus plowed the site of the Temple and its surroundings, thereby fulfilling the prophecy [Micah 3:12], "Zion will be plowed like a field."

SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:39 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I’m using the calendar on my phone. Perhaps it is wrong.
I understand mourning these things today. Today is a day of mourning, and we mourn ALL tragedies. That wasn’t what I was asking though. I have specifically seen and heard that these events happened on Tisha B’Av. My question is why....

Until the 3rd Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt all national tragedies we have stem from the fact we don’t have it. Hence some ultra orthodox religious rabbis don’t believe in Yom HaShoah- because it’s not a separate tragedy. It’s a continuation of galus and therefore should be commemorated together with the destruction of the temples. If not for their destruction we wouldn’t have the holocaust.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:40 am

SuperWify wrote:

But mourning tragedies on this day is different than saying they occurred on this day. We can mourn without saying things happened on Tisha B’Av when they actually didn’t.

rising hero

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 9:53 am

Many events did happen during the nine days. Saying they all happened on 9 av is probably just sensationalism and then people go along with it.

SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:09 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

But mourning tragedies on this day is different than saying they occurred on this day. We can mourn without saying things happened on Tisha B’Av when they actually didn’t.

Again according to google the jews were expelled from England on 9 Av, it’s brought down that the expulsion of Spain was as well. Ww2 was declared on 9 Av.

Not sure what your basing your information on.

It’s interesting to note that many Jews in Hungary including my ancestors were deported to aushwitz on shivah aser btammuz. Many many Hungarians keeep this day as the yartzheit of their relatives. We’re many Jews deported other day? Sure. Is there a connection? I don’t know.

#Happymom

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:12 am

Wasnt the chet haeigel on 9 av? And meraglim, and 1st and 2nd beit hamikdash were destroyed, and there is 1 other reason.. (remember learning in skl that there were 5 things happened on 9 av)

Ema of 5

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:14 am

SuperWify wrote:

I googled the English dates, and then used the calendar on my phone to check the Hebrew dates. What does that mean “it’s brought down”? Where is it brought down?

SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:18 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I googled the English dates, and then used the calendar on my phone to check the Hebrew dates. What does that mean “it’s brought down”? Where is it brought down?

Its in the Abarbanel.

Apparently it started on July 31st / 7 Av and ended on Aug 2 / 9 Av.
“The last Jews left Spain on Thursday, August 2, 1492, Tisha B'Av.”
https://www.chabad.org/library.....n.htm

SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:21 am

“ On August 2nd 1492, on Tish B’Av, two days before Christopher Columbus set sail on his voyage of discovery, the Abarbanel carrying a Torah scroll led 300,000 of his fellow Jews, their heads raised high – out of Spain.”

https://www.jewishdestiny.com/.....anel/

I’m not type of person who looks up things in sefraim but maybe someone else can verify. Imasoftov?

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:22 am

I learned that Jewish history is so full of tragedy, that if we were to commemorate each day in it's time, we would never stop fasting.

Therefore, Hashem in his mercy, has given us one day for all of our mourning. Otherwise, we would not be able to withstand it all.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:25 am

According to hebcal, July 31, 1492 was 27 Tamuz....
I’m so confused....

rising hero

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:31 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

According to hebcal, July 31, 1492 was 27 Tamuz....
I’m so confused....

https://www.hebcal.com/convert.....g2h=1
See the note on top.

SuperWify

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:35 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

According to hebcal, July 31, 1492 was 27 Tamuz....
I’m so confused....

Google the date and write Hebrew date. It was very clearly on 7 Av.

Also based on the above that I sourced it was on august 2 which was 9 Av.

penguin

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:42 am

July 4 1776 = 17 Tammuz

zaq

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:49 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I like it!
WWI started on 5 Av, July 28, 1914. Close enough. WWI is considered the beginning of the Holocaust because Germany's humiliating defeat fueled the German people's desire for revenge and provided fertile soil for Hitler's hatred.

OP, not everything has to be taken literally to the minute or even the day. make allowances for "poetic license" . Even gematriyas are accepted if they're off by one. you know how kitzur shulchan aruch says we don't eat nuts on RH because the gematriya of egoz=cheit? Well, arithmetic was never my strong point, but aleph +gimmel+vav+zayin=1+3+6+7=17. Cheit =chet+tet+aleph=8+9+1=18, which, btw is the same gematriya as Chai. Emor me'atah, sinning grants you life, and nuts are just nuts. Don't take things so literally.

If you want to be really pedantic, we ought to fast on the tenth of Av, since that is when most of the temple burned. It was set ablaze on the 9th towards evening and burned all the next day. But the disaster began long before. The Roman siege of Jerusalem lasted for months. The walls of Jerusalem were breached in series--there were several concentric walls that had to be breached one by one--and the Romans entered, defiled and looted the temple days before they torched it. So while we choose the ninth of av as the day to commemorate all this, and the chachamim say that is because the beginning of a catastrophe is harder to bear than its culmination, I believe it's simply a convenience. We certainly couldn't fast two consecutive days, 9 av for the first temple, 10th av for the second.

zaq

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 10:52 am

I think in every era, any disaster that takes place during July-August is considered 'as if' it happened on 9 Av. Works for me. I'm not a literalist.

Frumme

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 11:04 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

According to hebcal, July 31, 1492 was 27 Tamuz....
I’m so confused....

Like Madam F mentioned above, the issue seems to be coming from Pope Gregorian's calendar reformation.

If you take those 10 days into account, then the calamities that are often mentioned as being on 9th on Av are either on 9th of av or within a few days of it.

https://www.britannica.com/sto.....endar

keym

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 1:16 pm

I heard that it wasn't WW2 that started on 9Av, but Goring's Final Solution in 1942.
And in 1942, the first trains arrived in Treblinka.

HelloG

Thu, Jul 30 2020, 4:15 pm

never heard that these things happened on tisha baav

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