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Do you feel differently towards 9 Av after sitting shiva?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 1:00 pm
I've never really felt emotionally connected to Tisha b'Av. Yes, intellectually I understand that as a people we're mourning the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash and the Jewish nation being in galus but in practice that feels so distant from my life. I used to feel it more when I was able to go to shul and hear Eicha, but these days I'm just too busy trying to get through the fast while taking care of my children. I find fasting and sitting on the floor and the other restrictions of the day to be a distraction - I'm too physically uncomfortable to do much more than try to make it through the day as best as I can by keeping the kids and myself distracted as much as possible.

And then I sat shiva for a loved one and I understood what it was like to really mourn. It's not fasting - it's being too upset to have an appetite. It's not caring about your appearance because your world has just been upended, so you're not focusing on hygeine and makeup. I used to spend all day of Tisha b'Av waiting until it was over so I could brush my teeth and put on some deodorant and moisturizer and chapstick (and eat and drink of course) and feel human again. Then I spent a week of shiva going without and it didn't matter.

I don't wish the experience on anyone, but it did give me a greater appreciation for the inuyim of Tisha b'Av. I'm still trying to get through the day while taking care of my kids, but I'm not focusing on things that aren't essential anymore.
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amother




Mint
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 1:07 pm
TOTALLY! This is my first tisha bav after sitting shiva and the sitting on the floor and being in mourning again was so surreal and brought so much back. IY”H this will be the last year we have to fast and will be celebrating tisha bav as a YomTov in yerushalayim.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 1:11 pm
I also sat shiva but still felt that I need a shower etc.

I guess it depends how close you were to the loved one.

I do connect to tisha bav but I physically hate sitting on the floor.
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amother




Green
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 1:26 pm
After losing a person with whom you have had a close relationship, you understand that certain losses create a vacuum in the world that cannot be filled. No one can understand what it means or that the world looks different when you leave the house after the cocoon of shiva. You will never be the same again, and there is no going back to "before."

Tisha B'Av can be experienced in a more mature way as you can understand this type of life changing, inconsolable loss.

On Tisha B'Av we mourn the loss of relationship with G-d. We never experienced this relationship the way those who experienced the churban did, as we were born in Galus.

Having experienced such a devastating loss in life, I can begin to understand that there was an even
greater devastation when we were sent into Galus, and maybe imagine what it means that we lost our closeness to Hashem.

Sometimes you cry just to understand what you should be crying for. Even our confusion is part of the galus.

IYH this should be the last Tisha B'Av experienced as a time of mourning.
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amother




Cerise
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 2:07 pm
I sat Shiva for a very close person whom I really loved. I still wanted to take a shower. I didn't care how I looked but I felt uncomfortable in my skin. Also, when I am stressed, I eat, as do many other people. So, while I wasn't hungry per se, I wouldn't fast when I'm mourning. Everyone is different and reacts differently to situations.

I'm not disputing your point. I'm just saying that not everyone will necessarily fast easier on tisha bav because they've gone thru Shiva and now understand the meaning of fasting. Some of us actually overeat when mourning.

Have an easy fast
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whewpy




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 2:08 pm
Very well said, Green
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 3:28 pm
Sorry, but no.
I don't equate the two. One is a personal loss and the other is a national catastrophe. But either way, the customs of mourning don't really resonate with me. During shiva I yearned for a shower and was distressed by my shirt, which grew grimier and grimier. I don't think my parents A"H would have considered my showering or changing my shirt to be disrespectful of their memory. Like a pp, my response to distress is to eat, not to refuse to eat, and I'm not a big lover of meat. It would be a much greater sacrifice for me to give up dairy, especially ice cream and pizza.

OTOH I appreciate the customs of mourning because they give us structure. You know what you have to do and what you mustn't do. If we didn't have them, a mourner would just flounder around wondering "what should I do to commemorate my loss?" Can't you just see it; posts on imamother "help! My mom just passed, I want to do something appropriate to show my sorrow, but can't think of anything. Any ideas?" This one would say you should wear black, that one would say give up your favorite food, the other would say self-isolate at home, and a fourth would say read all of sefer tehillim every week.

No need; we have our uniform observances, whether they resonate with us or not.
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amother




Saddlebrown
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 3:30 pm
I lost a sibling who left behind a spouse and little children. Every time when I read certain parts of churban bais hamikdash I cry away. It's sort of reminds me of siblings spouse and children. It's many many yrs later and spouse remarried kids are very happy with new parent, but that pain I still feel every year again and asking hashem not to make my kids or myself go through that.
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batya315




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 3:47 pm
Once I learned what mourning really is, my attitude toward aveilus has totally changed. Yes I care about my appearance now and I did too during shivah but I've learned to sit with the present moment of mourning and not just will it to pass. I've also stopped looking for heterim for comfort
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 4:43 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
And then I sat shiva for a loved one and I understood what it was like to really mourn. It's not fasting - it's being too upset to have an appetite. It's not caring about your appearance because your world has just been upended, so you're not focusing on hygeine and makeup. I used to spend all day of Tisha b'Av waiting until it was over so I could brush my teeth and put on some deodorant and moisturizer and chapstick (and eat and drink of course) and feel human again. Then I spent a week of shiva going without and it didn't matter.

This was not my experience. I did not lose my appetite, neither during aninut nor shivah, and fasting didn't get any easier afterwards. If the community hadn't provided meals I wouldn't have prepared feasts for myself, but I wouldn't have gone hungry. I'm not arguing with Chazal, they said to fast on Tisha b'Av and the minor fast days so I do, but had they said do whatever you feel appropriate to express sadness on rabbinical fast days, I'd eat simple meals.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 4:54 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I've never really felt emotionally connected to Tisha b'Av. Yes, intellectually I understand that as a people we're mourning the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash and the Jewish nation being in galus but in practice that feels so distant from my life. I used to feel it more when I was able to go to shul and hear Eicha, but these days I'm just too busy trying to get through the fast while taking care of my children. I find fasting and sitting on the floor and the other restrictions of the day to be a distraction - I'm too physically uncomfortable to do much more than try to make it through the day as best as I can by keeping the kids and myself distracted as much as possible.

And then I sat shiva for a loved one and I understood what it was like to really mourn. It's not fasting - it's being too upset to have an appetite. It's not caring about your appearance because your world has just been upended, so you're not focusing on hygeine and makeup. I used to spend all day of Tisha b'Av waiting until it was over so I could brush my teeth and put on some deodorant and moisturizer and chapstick (and eat and drink of course) and feel human again. Then I spent a week of shiva going without and it didn't matter.

I don't wish the experience on anyone, but it did give me a greater appreciation for the inuyim of Tisha b'Av. I'm still trying to get through the day while taking care of my kids, but I'm not focusing on things that aren't essential anymore.

I’m sorry happy finally someone brought this up, Thanks OP . I was reading the posts on showering during 9 days and wondering to myself if I’m the only one that was a little put off by it... having lost my father 3 weeks before my wedding I totally relate to what OP is writing. Unfortunately when you are so sad and your heart is aching and you’re in pain most people don’t think about showering or other halachos of aveilus.... hopefully most posters here haven’t experienced personal loss/ shiva so they can’t relate, but I was really trying to be everyone Dan lkaf zchus ( yes I did shower during the 9 days it definitely wasn’t the way I usually shower and I just did it quietly without discussion or fanfare....
And regarding Tisha Baav yes I really feel sad probably not close enough to the mourning we’re supposed to feel and understanding what we’re missing but yes understanding a little of the pain of the shechina.
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amother




Linen
 

Post  Thu, Jul 30 2020, 6:04 pm
I don't think that the halachos of aveilus are about respecting the niftar. These minhagim developed over time. It's only in this past century that it's normal for people to shower every day. When bathing was a whole procedure, and no one bathed more than once a week, esp in the winter, it sounds reasonable to not take a bath in the middle of shiva. For people who shower every day, not showering for a week means something entirely different.

Same thing with music actually. When the only music there was, was live instruments, usually at weddings, it's one thing. There was no concept of putting on soft soothing music as background that people were used to always having on.
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Mama Bear




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:38 am
This year when we started the kinnos and it said that yerushalayim is like a widow who cries at night... I thought of all the fresh corona almanos....
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amother




Honeydew
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:00 am
I recently lost a parent and I was very emotional oh Tisha B'av. I felt because of my personal loss I was able to relate more to the loss of the shchina and Bais Hamikdash. Previous years I was sad but not the same as this year.
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kitov




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:25 am
Mama Bear wrote:
This year when we started the kinnos and it said that yerushalayim is like a widow who cries at night... I thought of all the fresh corona almanos....

I thought how difficult it must be for them to read this passuk. My heart was aching for them and for Yerushalayim that is off limits to us in the diaspora this year due to the virus. How lonely Yerushalayim feels this year more than any other year.
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gamzehyaavor




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:42 am
kitov wrote:
I thought how difficult it must be for them to read this passuk. My heart was aching for them and for Yerushalayim that is off limits to us in the diaspora this year due to the virus. How lonely Yerushalayim feels this year more than any other year.

Same Sad
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BH Yom Yom




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:44 am
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I recently lost a parent and I was very emotional oh Tisha B'av. I felt because of my personal loss I was able to relate more to the loss of the shchina and Bais Hamikdash. Previous years I was sad but not the same as this year.


Hug Hug
המקום ינחם אתכם בתוך שאר אבלי ציון וירושלים.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 10:27 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Sorry, but no.
I don't equate the two. One is a personal loss and the other is a national catastrophe. But either way, the customs of mourning don't really resonate with me. During shiva I yearned for a shower and was distressed by my shirt, which grew grimier and grimier. I don't think my parents A"H would have considered my showering or changing my shirt to be disrespectful of their memory. Like a pp, my response to distress is to eat, not to refuse to eat, and I'm not a big lover of meat. It would be a much greater sacrifice for me to give up dairy, especially ice cream and pizza.

OTOH I appreciate the customs of mourning because they give us structure. You know what you have to do and what you mustn't do. If we didn't have them, a mourner would just flounder around wondering "what should I do to commemorate my loss?" Can't you just see it; posts on imamother "help! My mom just passed, I want to do something appropriate to show my sorrow, but can't think of anything. Any ideas?" This one would say you should wear black, that one would say give up your favorite food, the other would say self-isolate at home, and a fourth would say read all of sefer tehillim every week.

No need; we have our uniform observances, whether they resonate with us or not.


The whole mourning for the churban is the reverse of the mourning for a loved one - increases in intensity, not decrease. Because it's not as acute and immediate and this is how we build up, while still living our lives. We have one day for the churban we say life can't go on, it's not business as usual, vs. a whole week. (And there are no food restrictions during the week. No, we don't need that.)

Yet Hashem has designed the world to be a metaphor. Think relationships. We are supposed to relate to Hashem on all levels, so He set up relationships as a paradigm to relate to Him better. It's very understandable that people who've experienced loss channel that to experience the loss of the BHMK.

Oh, and I think your post will resonate and be appreciated by many people. For me, it's especially teh second paragraph.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 10:30 am
kitov wrote:
I thought how difficult it must be for them to read this passuk. My heart was aching for them and for Yerushalayim that is off limits to us in the diaspora this year due to the virus. How lonely Yerushalayim feels this year more than any other year.


Oh yeah. As the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation started with the list of names and pictures, I thought of relatives in the audience and how this must have been hard. I hope in some way, comforting to know they weren't alone.

But I've often thought of people who've experienced recent loss when I daven: Hashem, how hard it must be to daven Shemoneh Esrei, or say Asher Yatzar, when they didn't experience You as a Rofeh. Give them koach.

This also reminds me of the story of Rabban Gamliel, who heard a widow crying nightly and cried with her until his eyelashes fell out. Now we all know gadol stories of tremendous empaths, who cried with people and yes, we need to feel another person's tzaar. But the lesson of this story is that all tzaar now is linked to our being in galus and having to experience things, whether as a kapara, consequence, whatever. So we should think of galus, chorban, of our mother Yerushalayim who in the kinnos mourns her children.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:24 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
I sat Shiva for a very close person whom I really loved. I still wanted to take a shower. I didn't care how I looked but I felt uncomfortable in my skin. Also, when I am stressed, I eat, as do many other people. So, while I wasn't hungry per se, I wouldn't fast when I'm mourning. Everyone is different and reacts differently to situations.

I'm not disputing your point. I'm just saying that not everyone will necessarily fast easier on tisha bav because they've gone thru Shiva and now understand the meaning of fasting. Some of us actually overeat when mourning.

Have an easy fast


Totally agree.

I was just talking to a friend of mine about this. Over the years I've heard people say that those who sit shiva don't think so much about the showering, etc...and yet people are always asking about showering in the 9 days, so it shows how we don't appreciate the churban.

And I found this is just not so. OK, maybe it's this generation. Don't know. But we sat Shiva for my mother and we definitely had questions about the showering, etc....Actually, my Rav paskened that I could wash during Shiva, for various reasons. And my sister, who was in the middle of dating her husband at the time, was told by her Rav that she should shower and do her hair and wear make up and look pretty (he was there almost every day) so that her (unofficial) chosson should be excited to see her.

And my friend told me she has a close friend who lost a child very tragically. And that person said the lack of showering made it so much worse and uncomfortable.

And I agree about the food. It was so thoughtful, those who brought fresh food to the shiva house. Shiva is exhausting, and you definitely need a boost. Yeah, I remember the first morning (before the Levaya) my BIL (I was staying at my sister's) made us all eat, he said it's gonna be a long day. Bless him. I forced down a bagel and eggs because he had gone to the trouble to get it and cook breakfast. But it wasn't easy to eat. But that wore off, and afterwards I was definitely hungry.

I don't think needing physical comforts negates the mourning. I think maybe we need these restrictions to feel the churban because that's harder? But for me, it was not a contradiction during Shiva.
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