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S/o anti vax cheder and shidduchim
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:20 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
If you antivax and your community vaxxes then you have taken yourself out of the community. You've formed your own community. One that places refusal to vax above everything else.


Where in Judaism does it say that??
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:27 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Where in Judaism does it say that??


R' Hillel teaches us - Al tifrosh min HiTzibur. - Pirkei Avos.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:28 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
R' Hillel teaches us - Al tifrosh min HiTzibur.


That's the best you can do?!
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:32 pm
Plenty of people have been advised by Rabbonim to do things that can be classes as not mainstream. It's general advice not halacha.

And what of במקום שאין אנשים השתדל להיות איש
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:35 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Plenty of people have been advised by Rabbonim to do things that can be classes as not mainstream. It's general advice not halacha.

And what of במקום שאין אנשים השתדל להיות איש


And who is saying you can't go against the mainstream? You most definitely can. You then just can't then expect the mainstream to accommodate your expectations.

If you're the man standing up, you forge your own path. You don't get to forge everyone else's paths though.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:41 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
And who is saying you can't go against the mainstream? You most definitely can. You then just can't then expect the mainstream to accommodate your expectations.

If you're the man standing up, you forge your own path. You don't get to forge everyone else's paths though.


I am not seeing these people's decisions not to vaccinate affecting others.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:43 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
I am not seeing these people's decisions not to vaccinate affecting others.


Well that's a good place to start. People not vaccinating destroys herd immunity - essentially wiping away the effects of vaccinations.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 6:52 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Well that's a good place to start. People not vaccinating destroys herd immunity - essentially wiping away the effects of vaccinations.


If the health department doesn't see it as a problem then that should be a good indicator of it being an issue.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 7:07 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
If the health department doesn't see it as a problem then that should be a good indicator of it being an issue.


I don't want to lead this thread into becoming a debate about vaccination itself. There are plenty of previous threads on imamother that delve into in depths. (And it's erev Shabbos, so no time for it either.) So let's stick to the previous discussion about choices and consequences (although that wasn't what the OP was going for either).

This is how I see it: As of right now, vaccinations are considered mandatory, and the majority chooses to go for it. The consequences of their action is to accept the minor risk of vaccinations in exchange for herd immunity. For those who choose to be in the minority and not vaccinate to avoid the minor risks associated with vaccinations, the consequences of their actions are that there will be a mandate to quarantine when there is an outbreak.

Each group chooses their choice, along with the consequence that comes with it. No group has the right to upset each other's choices. The majority cannot force the minority to accept the risks, and the minority cannot force the majority to accept the destroying of the herd immunity.

So if you want to be the man that helps the minority, then you come up with solutions that incorporate the consequences (instead of disregarding the consequences). Go ahead and pave the way. You can come up with a solution to open your own school for the unvaccinated, or you can come up with a plan to occupy the children and keep them on pace with their peers during a quarantine. Then both groups choices are honored.

And then let time do the work. If there is an agreeable solution for the unvaccinated, then those who feel forced to vaccinate, will no longer need to feel forced. And we can watch the numbers from the sidelines. If the minority group grows into large numbers, then schools (and the community) may need to reconsider their stances. Or if the minority group comes down with those childhood diseases, then we will have an actual visual of the effects of vaccination. If the group number stays static or declines, that speaks for itself.

Ask yourself, why is there the need to push the minority's will onto society? Just go ahead, and do your own thing.


Good Shabbos!
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 7:08 pm
If the other aspects of the shidduch have merit then a mature single person has to decide if this would bother them.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:06 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Do you understand how vaccines work? Or, in your terms, "supposedly work"?


Vaccines are supposed to give you immunity from catching the disease. So why are
vaccinated afraid of unvaccinated?
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:10 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Well that's a good place to start. People not vaccinating destroys herd immunity - essentially wiping away the effects of vaccinations.


Not true. Herd immunity is for those who cannot be vaccinated - which is maybe one in a thousand as it almost impossible to get a medical exemption.

Everyone who IS vaccinated is protected and has nothing to fear from unvaccinated.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:11 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
R' Hillel teaches us - Al tifrosh min HiTzibur. - Pirkei Avos.


This is why I had to stop buying officially vegan. I personally am Vegan but this year DH wanted me to stop due to the chinuch of our children and community. My kids didn't know the word vegan but it was getting to a point that they knew they were eating what everyone else was on Shabbos and DH did not like that. So although most days we eat vegan as a family (and me all the time), Shabbos there officially is meat, fish, eggs etc. and my kids just think I don't like that food or whatever else but not that I eat vegan. Sounds a little odd, but vegan is so distany to my community that my own in laws never even picked up on it being official and just think I don't care for fish etc or am picky lol. I still don't buy candy or chips but I'm sure the kids eat it at school.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:24 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Vaccines are supposed to give you immunity from catching the disease. So why are
vaccinated afraid of unvaccinated?


I guess it depends on the context.

Measles vaccine is extremely effective at both preventing infection and carrying and so I have no issue with being around unvaccinated, including during an outbreak. Of course if you have an infant too young to be vaccinated you may feel differently.

DTaP is not as effective especially at preventing being a carrier (than DTP - which my kids have received when we traveled anyways) so if you have an asthmatic older relative you like to visit you may not want your kids playing with unvaccinated children during an outbreak or you may need antibiotics during one before visiting a relative. I was at a sheva brachos a few years ago and although my TDaP was up to date a child with pertussis was coughing all over me and I had a meeting with a relative on steroids for a bone disease that I needed to visit so her doctor advised me to take antibiotics before seeing her to play it safe.

Other diseases have vaccines not as effective at preventing illness as the MMR (such as chicken pox) so you may not want to risk your child being in the small percent of people for whom the vaccine is not effective.

I believe vaccinating should be a choice but the anti vaccine movement is based upon a lot of misinformation. So while not vaccinating is fine, a vaccine is not going to cause your child to become autistic or something else and the likelihood of your child being medically adverse to a vaccine is about 1 in 1 or 3 million depending on the vaccine. You still have a right not to vaccinate, but that right is really only there because of the success of vaccines and modern medicine as a whole.
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amother




Coral
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:27 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
I think you're overlooking one critical thing. The right to freedom (in anything) extends as long as you don't step on anyone's toes. Otherwise, you're placing your rights over the other persons.

So, in this situation, you are right that you retain the right not to vaccinate. But once there is an outbreak, the unvaccinated are putting other people at risk. So in order to keep to it that you're not stepping on anyone's toes, the unvaccinated MUST be quarantined for the specific amount of time.

If you want to argue that your rights are being trampled by being forced to vaccinated - remember, that you are not being forced. Being unvaccinated comes hand in hand with going into quarantine when the dept of health designates a quarantine. You can't pick one part of it and drop the other. You choose something, you choose the package that comes with it.

So you, as the mother, are making the decision. You know beforehand that you may need to keep your children home at certain times. So there is no rishus on any schools or chedarim. They are just protecting the entire student body, - as they should. If you think there's rishus involved in any way, maybe look at your own choices for them? If you do believe you are doing right by them, then why are you taking issue with what those choices require? Why do you believe the rest of the world is required to take upon themselves the burden of your choices?


we went through this about a billion times during the measles outbreak
if the DOH would mandate the quarantine LAWFULLY, according to how the law has been for many years- to send home the unvaxxed when there is an outbreak (three or more cases) in THAT school, we all would've gladly complied
just throwing us around didn't work
but after all many good things came out of those painful months, for my family personally
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:29 pm
Lawngreen, I'm so distraught over the outcome of last year. I still do not think that it's correct and moral and I'm so sad that there hasn't been any leadership involved in helping these children.

I'm not at all talking about NY. But in other states school policies have changed that were not because of law. There wasn't discussion about how to work with those parents. There wasn't any platform for these parents to say their side of the story.

When I tell people what I do they laugh! It's awful that so many people feel that they have a right to dictate to other parents what's best. That they have a right to judge. Everyone gets the information they need behashgacha pratis. We really don't know what other people are going through. Medical records are confidential for a reason. I'm so sick and tired of reading and hearing heartless comments.

I'm asking for people to show some decency.
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amother




Aubergine
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:29 pm
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
we went through this about a billion times during the measles outbreak
if the DOH would mandate the quarantine LAWFULLY, according to how the law has been for many years- to send home the unvaxxed when there is an outbreak (three or more cases) in THAT school, we all would've gladly complied
just throwing us around didn't work
but after all many good things came out of those painful months, for my family personally


Dont you need a legal exemption to go to school? Also every school in Monsey had over 3 cases..
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amother




Coral
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:48 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
Dont you need a legal exemption to go to school? Also every school in Monsey had over 3 cases..

at that time, we had a legal PERSONAL religious exemption and my school didn't have three cases
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amother




Aubergine
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 10:58 pm
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
at that time, we had a legal PERSONAL religious exemption and my school didn't have three cases


Then I don't understand why you were asked to leave. That's something you should take up with the school.
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amother




Babyblue
 

Post  Sat, Aug 01 2020, 11:02 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Why not? Don't you believe the vaccines protect you?


That comment displays total ignorance on the basic vaccination of science. Not surprised. Exiting this thread because debating with antivaxxers is a waste of breath.
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