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S/o anti vax cheder and shidduchim
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:09 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Thank you! This is why mandating vaccines is wrong. If the vaccines work, then what are you worried about?

As for immunocompromised children - one child's life is not worth more than another.
Can't force risk on one child to protect another. There are also many germs out there that have no vaccine so if the child is so fragile, should not be in school.


No where in the US are you forced to vaccinate.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:11 am
nchr wrote:
No where in the US are you forced to vaccinate.


When people are denied going to school, college or employment unless they vax
that is coercion.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:16 am
nchr wrote:
I don't understand you. If the school has a rule that mothers cannot drive and a mother gets her license, is it the school that is behaving wrongfully or the mother? Obviously the children need to be expelled - they broke a rule. Sometimes they may not notice the driving mother or ignore it until someone complains, but it ia the parents behavior risking the children's expulsion and not the schools rule. You know the rules when you signed up.

We make choices everyday. Schools allow unvaxxed children with legitimate medical exemptions - these are the children that need those around them to be vaccinated most.

I had unvaccinated children at my house during the measles outbreak. I don't have any concerns being around them because I know vaccines work especially the measles vaccine, but I do not run a school and I do not make public policy.


It's a weak analogy. Especially last year when policy changed in the middle of a school year, children in some communities were kicked out of school because of an outbreak out of state. There wasn't a warning about it, just emotional women pushing the irrational when they heard the word measles.

In my second post I was very clear why it's wrong. There wasn't any changes in the beginning of 2020 other than in NY that required a change in policy. This choice to send children away was very emotional, not rational. A parent could have sent their children to the same school for years without any problems. 2020: Your children aren't welcome until they have every shot don't worry, we'll let the HPV slide.
It's sudden, unnecessary, probably illegal*, and is really harming these families. Shidduchim is the farthest thing from their minds (and not because they don't have children of marriageable age). They really feel like their hands are tied. Seeing the way some of their children are suffering so much allegedly because of vaccines and the way their other children are suffering so much because they don't have vaccines. They don't feel like they have options.

I have only seen apathy on the part of administration and emotional women. Very little reason. I really feel for these parents, it's so horrible!


*I'm pretty sure discrimination based on medical records is illegal.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:20 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
But what about the medically fragile child's siblings? Should they also stay home? I know children who were immunocompromised, like cancer and they were niftar from measles. Would you want that on your conscious? I vaccinate to protect the lives of such people.


If it was a real issue then it wouldn't have only come up in 2019. Cancer wasn't discovered in 2019 and neither was measles or anything else that can harm immunocompromised. This is not legitimate enough of a reason for all the children to not have a school.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:23 am
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
If it was a real issue then it wouldn't have only come up in 2019. Cancer wasn't discovered in 2019 and neither was measles or anything else that can harm immunocompromised. This is not legitimate enough of a reason for all the children to not have a school.


Exactly. What have immunocompromised children and their siblings done for the last
50 years??? It was OK for 50 years to have unvaxed children in school and suddenly
we're all gonna die if unvaxed kids are in school. Most states still allow unvaxed kids in school and the world did not end. This is Fake News Propaganda Hysteria.
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amother




Cyan
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:29 am
oh come on. This argument is WAY too old and boring.

This was s'posed to be about shidduchim and anti vaxxers
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newcomer




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:33 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
oh come on. This argument is WAY too old and boring.

This was s'posed to be about shidduchim and anti vaxxers

Lol. There really isn't an argument because, by the time most of these kids are old enough to be in shidduchim, there will be strict enough laws mandating vaccinations, so that the anti vax people will have either moved out of the country (not sure where, because most countries will be doing the same) or forced to concede on this issue.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:36 am
REALITY CHECK When the measles outbreak happened last year, the health dept asked that unvaxxed children be kept home for 21 days to help stop the outbreak. There was complete noncompliance. That's actually what triggered the state to pass the strict vaccination rules about attending schools.

I have immunocompromised family member. I dont think my child's life matters more than yours. But, his life matters as much as your child's life. I do every hishtadlus necessary to keep safe. Everyone else in the family is immunized. During the measles outbreak, he stayed home. When forced to go out for urgent appointments, my child wore mask and gloves the entire time.

Is your child's life worth more than mine? If you choose not to vaccinate, are you doing the hishtadlus that comes with that? Did you keep your children home for 21 days during the outbreak? I know you didn't, as we clearly all remember what went on last year....

I do believe a parent has the right to choose the option whether to vaccinate. However, with that choice, comes the responsibility to keep your child home during an outbreak to protect immunocompromised population whose lives matter equally to your child's. If you cant do that, you basically forfeit making that choice.

Which is basically what happened in NY last year. Leaving antivaxxers up a creek caused by your own choices
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amother




OP
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:39 am
And, btw, for those arguing that there are parents that cant givevthe shots because of injury or allergies and so forth, the same applies to you. If you dont give shots, keep your child home during the outbreak.

If you were from the minority that did, well, that's really too bad. The other noncompliant parents ruined the option of exemptions for everyone.
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amother




Slateblue
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:40 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
REALITY CHECK When the measles outbreak happened last year, the health dept asked that unvaxxed children be kept home for 21 days to help stop the outbreak. There was complete noncompliance. That's actually what triggered the state to pass the strict vaccination rules about attending schools.

I have immunocompromised family member. I dont think my child's life matters more than yours. But, his life matters as much as your child's life. I do every hishtadlus necessary to keep safe. Everyone else in the family is immunized. During the measles outbreak, he stayed home. When forced to go out for urgent appointments, my child wore mask and gloves the entire time.

Is your child's life worth more than mine? If you choose not to vaccinate, are you doing the hishtadlus that comes with that? Did you keep your children home for 21 days during the outbreak? I know you didn't, as we clearly all remember what went on last year....

I do believe a parent has the right to choose the option whether to vaccinate. However, with that choice, comes the responsibility to keep your child home during an outbreak to protect immunocompromised population whose lives matter equally to your child's. If you cant do that, you basically forfeit making that choice.

Which is basically what happened in NY last year. Leaving antivaxxers up a creek caused by your own choices


I agree with you totally. Totally.
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amother




Emerald
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:44 am
newcomer wrote:
Lol. There really isn't an argument because, by the time most of these kids are old enough to be in shidduchim, there will be strict enough laws mandating vaccinations, so that the anti vax people will have either moved out of the country (not sure where, because most countries will be doing the same) or forced to concede on this issue.
I don't know that you're right. Vaccines have been around for decades. And someone who's living an authentic crunchy lifestyle whose vax choices don't affect anyone else ought to have that option.

I suspect though that private schools will all have to enforce vaccinations, because by their very nature you're herding lots of kids into confined spaces and that's how these diseases spread.

I stand by what I said before. Antivaxxers ought to want to homeschool their kids, and should be finding ways to make it happen. Antivax and homeschool go hand in hand. Like pb&j.

Who will they marry? I'm, uh, not quite sure.

FTR I don't think antivaxxers have such stigma in the yeshivish community. They're also not quite as radical.
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newcomer




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 11:54 am
Post pandemic that shut down the country and is hugely impacting the economy??? You better believe that once there is a covid vaccine it will br mandated for school attendance. Both public and private. Colleges. Lots of jobs.
Do you realize that there are only about 2 states still planning on having public schools open in the fall? And that probably won't happen. It's become political on both sides. Trump wants them to open, so if he wins, yes he will be ok with laws mandating them. Biden certainly will.
All comes down to the economy.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:01 pm
OP there's a lot of nuances to your rant. They could all be dealt with properly and calmly.

I was specifically not talking about NY, while they still could have managed better.

People were passionately arguing over vaccines and their effectiveness and safety. Very little logic came up in those discussions. The situation was not handled well at all I agree but the start of this school year was a horrible thing.

These parents don't see themselves as having an option. The schools decided that it's a problem when it's not. 2008 was a way better model than 2019.

In 2008 some parents gave the MMR some kept their kids home for 21 days. Yes there were articles then against mother's not vaccinating. There was some of that emotional badgering. And everyone moved on.

It's so disturbing how ok everyone is with the outcome of 2019.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:03 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
oh come on. This argument is WAY too old and boring.

This was s'posed to be about shidduchim and anti vaxxers


Passionate people for or against should not marry each other. What else needs to be discussed?

ETA: I'm sorry that advocating for these children that are put out of schools without reason is too old and boring for you.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:13 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I stand by what I said before. Antivaxxers ought to want to homeschool their kids, and should be finding ways to make it happen. Antivax and homeschool go hand in hand. Like pb&j.


Do you stand by that to make yourself feel better? Homebirthed, unvaccinated, organic, unTylenoled, amber necklaces wearing Jewish children are still Jewish and belong as part of the community. Jews don't have that option of living without a community, it's part of the frum life. Shunning people based on how they choose to keep their kids healthy and strong is against the Torah.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:17 pm
With a slightly different approach, Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, a major contemporary Israeli posek rules :2

"One may not obligate any healthy person to receive treatment as a preventive measure. Although one may try to convince the individual, he may do no more. If there was absolute evidence that [an individual] could be a danger to others, such as in spreading infection which could be fatal, then there would be a case for forcing him to have a vaccine, but only if it was certain that the vaccine itself was not dangerous to him."

From Jewish medical ethics.

Against the Torah.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:39 pm
Ruby, see my post above. Point still applies
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amother




Emerald
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:43 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Do you stand by that to make yourself feel better? Homebirthed, unvaccinated, organic, unTylenoled, amber necklaces wearing Jewish children are still Jewish and belong as part of the community. Jews don't have that option of living without a community, it's part of the frum life. Shunning people based on how they choose to keep their kids healthy and strong is against the Torah.

I’m not shunning anyone. The fact is that I’ve interacted with antivaxxers in the world at large and they’re all homeschooling. Every last one of them. The only exception is if an older child decides they want to go to school for socialization reasons.

My comment about shidduchim is because marrying someone on condition that they’ll homeschool their kids is a hard sell. That’s all.
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amother




Emerald
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:46 pm
newcomer wrote:
Post pandemic that shut down the country and is hugely impacting the economy??? You better believe that once there is a covid vaccine it will br mandated for school attendance. Both public and private. Colleges. Lots of jobs.
Do you realize that there are only about 2 states still planning on having public schools open in the fall? And that probably won't happen. It's become political on both sides. Trump wants them to open, so if he wins, yes he will be ok with laws mandating them. Biden certainly will.
All comes down to the economy.
Mandated for school attendance, sure. That’s where homeschooling comes in. Anyone who’s passionate enough about it will homeschool. Like I said, the antivaxxers I bump into who aren’t frum all seem to be homeschooling anyway.

Edit: when it comes to jobs there’s always work from home. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ruby, see my post above. Point still applies


There's a lot of details that need to be dealt with. And details are tedious and it's hard, but I would have liked to see a whole lot more of it before sending those children out of school.

Emerald I'm sure a lot of these people would choose to homeschool if they weren't frum. It's just really not so much of a good option for the frum. The situation was not handled well at all.
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