Wedding expense articles in family first magazine

amother

Aqua

Mon, Aug 03 2020, 11:57 pm

hillary wrote:

How does anyone justify a demand from a Young kallah for a real diamond ring? Like she was cheated if its 'only' cz. What have you produced for the world that someone should borrow money for you?

I would have been one of those "demanding kallahs" feeling cheated if I had gotten a CZ ring. I didn't expect anything else but getting a real diamond ring was the 1 expectation I did have. I would not have cared if it was a tiny solitare but I think it would be extremely insulting for the chosson's side to scrimp on that. Like I said before, there are many other things to cut costs on and if that is what the chossen's family wants to "cheap out" on.... I don't know what to say....

out-of-towner

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 12:00 am

What Jewish source does an engagement ring have? Jewelry yes, there is a source for, Eliezer gave Rivka bracelets and a nose ring when she agreed to marry Yitzchak. Engagement rings are not sourced in Judaism to the best of my knowledge.

Here is an explanation for how diamond rings came to be a thing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU

Last edited by out-of-towner on Tue, Aug 04 2020, 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 12:00 am

But there are other kallahs who will be upset that someone scrimped on the photographer, on the watch, on the musician or on the Shabbos Kallah flowers.

Yes, every kallah deserves to be pampered in SOME way. But not EVERY way!

Why is it so taboo to find out if the kallah in question would mind a CZ ring or not? It's not a universal expectation.

I didn't want any kind of diamond ring, and I have no regrets on that either. But someone else might feel differently.

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 12:02 am

out-of-towner wrote:

Never said it was a Jewish source. But it is a recognizable symbol literally everywhere on Earth. And more respectable/accepted nowadays than the nose rings given in Biblical times.

ETA for that matter, according to Jewish sources you don't need a wedding ring per say. But nobody would dream of getting married without one.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 3:54 am

I did not find the article "amusing" or "enlightening". I found it disgusting.

Maybe because I didn't grow up rich, and we lived mainly within our means. We weren't stingy or overly frugal, and I never felt deprived, but this kind of spending is just so far out of my world that I can't even wrap my head around it.

I couldn't stop thinking about how many Shabbos meals that money could provide for poor families. How many pairs of shoes for kids. How many school books.

When DD had her bas mitzva, she wanted a small meal at shalosh seuda, and raised money for Israeli Guide Dogs for the Blind. She didn't want lots of presents and gelt for herself, she wanted a mitzva project.

If more couples did something like that, imagine starting your life out with so many mitzvot! It's practically a segulah for Shalom Bayis.

(PS: When I was married, I had an absolutely gorgeous CZ ring set in sterling silver. I picked it out myself, and it cost a grand total of 38 dollars. I got constant compliments on it!) https://scontent.ftlv2-1.fna.f.....F7846

amother

Seashell

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 5:55 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Seashell, the problem in Israel is the expectation for money given as apartment down payments. That's probably what makes up a good 75% of meshulachim traveling to collect. It's a huge huge pressure. Girls who don't have parents willing to offer serious $ in this regard, have a hard time getting married. In certain Israeli circles. That's not any better, imo.

I am definitely not part of that circle.I might have been when I first got here but I have been so turned off by that system. I have a friend that just married off her first daughter and she said she had to spend a ridiculous amount of money.when I got married my parents said that I should not get married until I could afford to. Of course they helped and they continue to help but we are hard at working and they help because they want to not because they were blackmailed into it.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:00 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Exactly. I hate to think that the "shidduch crisis" is driven by how much money the parents can afford to spend. Who decides how many cows a woman is worth, anyway? I mean, let's face it, it's still the dowry system.

giselle

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:18 am

I completely agree that it is crazy to spend ridiculous amounts of money that you can’t afford to marry off children. However there is obviously a huge discrepancy here among different circles. 7k for a watch? Over the top. I don’t think a frum publication should have even published that ridiculous article. But in my circles it would be completely unheard of for a girl not to get a real diamond. I literally do not know one person who wouldn’t buy their daughter in law a real diamond. That doesn’t mean I think every single person is like that. But to me and everyone I know that is just basic and standard. So OP if you are part of these circles, you’re better off planning for that than hoping you find the rare non existent girl who tells you she doesn’t want a diamond. Your husband is in kollel, and in those circles there are things like takana weddings which are cheaper, but a diamond is really not optional. I’m just saying it how it is.

Before all that though, how do you plan to pay tuition for the next number of years until they get married? Personally that’s what I would be thinking about if I was in your position.

asmileaday

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:39 am

giselle wrote:

I know very well that it's that way. I'm not even griping about 7k watches.
In my circles it's also only acceptable to give real diamonds and gold for everything- ring earring bracelet watch etc...
Of course if someone can plan and save for this plus retirement they should.
My gripe is the reality as it is right now. Even though it's acceptable, it's still not normal. Not normal that people on a shoestring budget need to spend 100x the amount on a piece of jewelry for a youngster that they'd never even spend on themselves. Even 1k for a watch is ridiculous and that is considered at the bottom of the spending ladder.

I know my posting about it here won't make a dent. It's just incredible when you think about it with a reasonable mind. Add to that that there's no logical justification except that this is what became the norm as a bare basic.

giselle

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:43 am

asmileaday wrote:

The truth is, what bothers me more is that the boys in a lot of these communities are not brought up well prepared to make a good living and then are expected to have big families and pay for all these expenses.

asmileaday

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:49 am

And for the record my kids are still a nice few years away from shidduchim, I have a very small family, and iy"h I probably can afford the basics (as unnecessary I feel it is).
It's just that family members are starting to marry off now and I see the situation up close.
Money needs to be collected for these bare bones weddings and gifts. These families live on a smaller than shoestring budget but chas vesholom a kallah shouldn't be given a 1k bracelet (which is considered dirt cheap btw) or a chosson shouldn't get his 1k pocket watch (also considered very cheap and in most cases will hardly be used because who still uses pocket watches these days...).
And this is for the segment that knows they don't have money and is ok with giving the "cheapest" gifts.
Can you imagine those that are middle class and ARE making it (paycheck to paycheck usually)? Can you imagine what kind of financial nightmare marrying off creates for this middle class?

asmileaday

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:51 am

giselle wrote:

Also true.

I usually end these discussions with we need Moshiach because I don't see a solution that would actually work. The whole system is dysfunctional.
Ain somech al haness. We aren't supposed to rely on miracles.

amother

Coral

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:20 am

giselle wrote:

I think people have a choice to perpetuate the system or break out. But I guess that’s a different discussion.

I agree

I was raised with the unpopular values of working hard to earn an honest living, living without excessive materialism even if you could afford it and BENEATH YOUR MEANS.

Btw I am all for kollel and would love my husband to stay in kollel as long as possible. Still I am many years away from making weddings and already thinking of the practical side and planning for it.

I find it interesting that everyone of these threads go in the same direction every time..tzedakah, telling kallah you can't afford anything, etc etc

Literally no one things along the lines of actually working hard, living simply and saving.