Anyone backing out of sending daughter to seminary in EY

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 11:23 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

Mandksima, I hear you. But would you say the same thing if the young adult themself does not want to go at this time? To separate themself from their family?

Most young adults are excited to break free from living at home and go abroad. It depends on the person and the reason they don't want to go away from their family. It could be they never learned about EY in this way and why it is so important and central to Judaism. What makes it so special and enviable to live here? If there is no background in that information, their neshama is just not aware yet and needs to be enlightened. If the person is usually full of anxiety, then leaving is a harder thing to do. That takes some searching to find out what the fear really is about.

When I went to sem, I stayed the whole year and my parents didn't visit. It is a real growing experience to foster independence. It is easy to adopt a family here to feel like you're not alone if that's wanted. After the quarantine period, of course.

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 11:32 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Mandksima,
Beautiful post.
I am actually one of the people backing out. We were supposed to be in Israel now on a pilot trip for my kids to see and feel out living in Israel and where. (We are Heimish and would need to see which community would work).
So I'm with you about Aliya. However it is not possible to come right now. Borders are shut. I am backing out because I am not sure my daughter will be able to go later on either, as things look unpredictable, and to put away 30k for that right now doesn't make sense for us.
Hopefully we can come as a family once borders open and give them the experience then, hopefully with Moshiach. For now the most sensible plan is to keep her here for now and make plans accordingly.

Ah, that is the purpose of my post. Life in general is unpredictable. The only stability is our Torah and EY will be given to us. But, I am not sure I get why your daughter doesn't want to go regardless if you all go now or not. She can come to sem and make aliyah from here and help you as well. I would push to go even without a pilot trip if you are already considering it. There are so many people willing to help find communities, apartments and schools for you via video calls where you can almost be here. It can be done. We had a new friend find an apartment for us. We only met her once before and she took pictures and everything for us while we were in the US.

amother

Blonde

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 11:33 am

I am not denying in any way the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel. When Moshiach comes I'll be on the first plane over. The modern government of Israel however has no kedusha. It is run by anti religious self hating Jews for the most part. There is corruption and civil unrest in Israel as well. It is still very much golu.

I wonder if certain people posting on this thread work for or own seminaries. From the people I have spoken to in real life who know people who work for seminaries they are TERRIFIED of the current paradigm changing. They are afraid people will realize girls can survive without the year in an Israeli Seminary and stop sending. This would destroy the entire industry and the livelihoods of many people. That is unfortunate. But I don't have to agree to send my daughter into a situation of sakana because of it.

And you know what. It's actually the reaction of the Seminary industry (and yes, it's an industry with it's own lobbying group now) to the current crisis had actually woken me up. It's plainly obvious that it's all about the money and nothing about the girls at all feom how they have been reacting to the situation. They should have said. "You know what, we realize it's not a year where people feel comfortable sending their children so far from home so we're not going to open this year." Instead they twisted things and came up with a plan that any sane person who really thinks about it would realize is all about them and their pockets.

Bringing religion and the meraglim etc... into this is classic gaslighting. Shame on you!

amother

Blonde

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 11:36 am

mandksima wrote:

"After" the quarantine period they will be locked in the seminaries with the rest of the students possibly for the rest of the year. I have dozens of close family members living in Eretz Yisroel. She would have not been allowed to visit any of them. They would have been allowed to visit her from behind a pelxiglass booth.
Like prison.

amother

Gray

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 11:46 am

mandksima wrote:

I appreciate your passion. However I have not yet found anyone who has told me it's a good idea to put 30k now on the line for this, (especially as I lost my job in March and not yet sure if the company will open again).
I am not even sure Israel is opening for Seminary. Nobody knows.
As soon as Israel opens again we'll come as as a family and hopefully with moshiach being here.

little neshamala

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:01 pm

mandksima wrote:

. Every gadol in EY and most in America are saying now is the time, it's already late! .........

The gedolim are saying they are! .

I appreciate your enthusiasm but the gadol in America we listen to actually spoke quite strongly against people assuming aliyah is a good idea for everyone. He stressed that its wonderful for some people, but for others it can be dangerous for their kids, and the wrong thing to do.

There is no blanket rule for everyone.

little neshamala

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:08 pm

I also just want to put this out there....for anyone deciding what their daughters should do next year...
Not every single girl truly needs a year of seminary (im not talking E'Y. Im talking even in USA). Some girls do. But some girls dont.
There are plenty of girls who go to sem in EY just for the thrill of livng in the land, the tiyulum, the mekomos hakdoshim....and not for the extra in-class learning.
If a girl is staying here, and is solid in her hashkafos, is "fully baked" and wants to get started full time on a degree or something, that can be something to consider.
I know quite a few very good girls who have done that, and it worked out well for them.

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:13 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

We learn over and over again that if the Jews just came to Israel, that alone would have brought moshiach. It is within our power to bring him and it is not necessary to wait passively. The government does not need kedusha at this point. It is like the builders of the beit hamikdash who were unclean and entered the kodesh kodeshim. After the beit hamikdash was finished, the holiness descended and only the kohen gadol once a year could enter. The common laborers who build up the land of Israel are tzaddikim and the land would spit them out if they didn't deserve to be here. I don't hold any judgment on the citizens of Israel, in my mind they are all tzaddikim. Hashem knows their hearts. It is not a golut place. Only a golut time which is changing as we speak.

Running a seminary is a parnassa like any other. I am not in that world at all but I can read your agitation. That is not the only route available. If you don't like it, avoid it by having your child make aliyah and pay like an Israeli, which for my daughter this year in midrasha, is paying around $3K. For a young man, I don't think learning at Mir is anywhere near as expensive. She can live with a family here and go to a local place with some English speakers. Honestly though, my parents spent the money on me going to sem and it was worth every penny to be here and to instill a love of the Land into my heart. If seminaries and yeshivot closed their doors just because of carona, I would really cry. That would be the worst! Hashem is making it so that your children can come even if you can't. It is such a huge bracha. It doesn't even make sense that they are letting students in but Hashem wants it so it goes against logic. It's not so much about money over here anywhere like it is in the US. Most tuition is super cheap and yes, they hike it up for the Americans who are willing to pay for it. I hear you but you should still be feeling like it is a gift to be able to pay money for such an experience. You don't seem to value the time spent here, no matter how much you're being overcharged for it.

I'm not sure what period of sakana you are referring to. She would be leaving a place of sakana (gedolim have mentioned the shechina has left America and is waiting for everyone in Israel now) and coming to a safer place. The whole country is her extended family. Yes, one could survive without seminary. But, when comparing it to what you could easily have, why give it up for mere survival? I don't think you feel the geula like I do. I don't think you understand the kedusha of EY even when we're still at the end of exile, it doesn't matter in terms of benefit for your child. Like I wrote before, one min of living here is worth more than a lifetime of (survival) outside EY. Why dismiss this and go after the seminary industry (I'm not part of this so I have no idea if this is a thing or not but I would assume it just affects a few people's parnassa and has nothing to do with most people who are just living life here)? Many businesses have had issues or closed down because of carona lockdown. It's like saying the falafel and shwarma industry is crazed thinking the sem girls and yeshiva boys won't be here to patronize them. I don't think they'll be that devastated and most businesses reinvent themselves if they fail. So seminaries can do other business but in the end, it's the girls that will suffer for not coming more than the seminaries suffer their business changing. Parnassa for them is from Hashem. You really have very little to do with that. Just like the poor beggar gives more benefits to the giver by taking his money than the beggar himself receives and one should thank the people he gives tzedakah to for this reason, one should thank the seminaries for the experience more than the seminaries should thank the people attending. You are looking at it backwards, unfortunately. Everyone should be grateful but your child will gain way more than the seminary can possibly gain.

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:19 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

So, she should make aliyah and live with them. She'll have a short quarantine. Even better! And cheaper! It is still better than staying in the US.

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:22 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

I hear you. It's a ton of money. Would she make aliyah now rather than wait? It's a totally different situation for you anyway as you all want to come. Hopefully, it will work out for you very soon.

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:27 pm

little neshamala wrote:

I hear you but times they are a'changing. The same considerations that used to be necessary are no longer so applicable. It's like saying there are those of klal yisrael that shouldn't be part of the geula. Now, that things are changing fast, we have to look at it with geula glasses and as well, what kind of situation will America be in soon. Is anyone denying that it's going downhill quickly?

amother

Silver

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:27 pm

A friend of mine, who lived in the Anglo Chareidi world in Israel for a few years, once observed to me, The seminaries exist to give a living to the Americans in Israel.
In many ways, she is right. And blonde, you are on the mark, too, when you describe it as an industry.
The paradigm is shifting, though. I don't see it coming back, no matter in what form sems open this year.

Personally I spent a year in sem around 20 years ago. Did not have a good experience for a variety of reasons. Was not interested in going back, ever. Then a few years later, my sister convinced me to go on a trip with her for a few weeks. What a different experience. It rejuvenated me in many ways and kindled my feelings for the land. Seminary was not the vehicle for me.
I saw the lack of respect, disdain, envy that the Americans and Israelis had for the sem girls. We were seen as a commodity just a way for them to run their business. From many of the teachers and certainly people in the neighborhoods. It shouldn't have been a surprise. Back in high school I had had an Israeli teacher, who loved to tell us typical Israeli jokes where stupid American sem girls were the butt of the jokes. She was confused that we didn't find them as hilarious as she did, so she stopped telling them. That should have been a tip off to us. BTW I went to a school that pushed sem in Israel very very heavily.

little neshamala

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:33 pm

mandksima wrote:

As soon as the gadol we follow says to go, we will go. But that isnt what he's saying so we continue life in USA

mandksima

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:35 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

I went to sem around 25 years ago and actually disliked most of the experience. I can hear what you're saying but in those times staying in America was an option and sem wasn't nearly as expensive. You chose to see the negatives but one can not love the sem experience and still appreciate the year. Having a good eye is so important when it comes to EY so loshon hara is avoided on Hashem's chosen and beloved Land. It was such an awesome year for me. The families I met, the places I visited, the Torah and mussar I learned. If it were times like there are now, I would have stayed and made this my home instead of continuing life (I went to Touro.) There would not have been any pull to return to American life. My advice is to send your children here any way you can! For most, sem makes more sense. For others, aliyah.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:41 pm

mandksima wrote:

I don't propose to change anyone's mind but I have to say my mind. I don't want to be responsible for not speaking up. Perhaps what I write will invoke feelings in some, one never knows. The only reason why American rabbonim would oppose sending young adults overseas at this point has to do with still having their blinders on. The world has totally changed and the place to be, under any circumstances, would be Israel. Rabbis are not meant to be used in place of your own mind and relationship with Hashem. Rabbis made up the great men who were the spies and those and the rest of the rabbis of the time died out in the desert. Today, of all days, on Tu B'av, is when they stopped dying and perhaps today, of all days, you can decide on your own, especially as women who had no part in the sin and who will be the ones to bring in the geula. The rabbis were blamed and received the death sentence. The women were spared but they suffered the losses greatly. Yehoshua and Calev who were the righteous rabbis of the time never suggested staying away from Israel even at the cost of leaving their sheltered lives and becoming conquerers and agricultural hands and builders. The gedolim of Israel today can be compared to Yehshua and Calev. Don't follow the princes of the other tribes.

Just one point. The spies were not "rabbis," and neither was Calev. Yehoshua was a "rabbi" but only in the sense that he was Moshe's top student.

I don't even think the spies were chosen from among the judges of the time.

banana123

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:44 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

It's not gaslighting. It's classic reishit tzmichat geulateinu.

This is how a lot of Religious Zionists see things.

Please don't stick your own subjective and incorrect labels on it, just because you disagree with the premise. You can believe that someone is wrong while not disparaging, shaming, or making assumptions about them.

banana123

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:45 pm

mandksima wrote:

Just curious, are you a chassid of Rav Kook? Smile

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:47 pm

mandksima wrote:

Among other things, he wants to know that if he gets really sick or hurt in Israel, his parent(s) can come and help him, especially since his Hebrew is rotten. And he wants to know that if one of us gets really sick here, he can easily come home and be here. Because, pandemic. The schools have told us that the one thing they can't control or change is flights and entry rules. Also, a tight two week quarantine with people he's just met really scares him.

There are plenty of young people who, even with the feeling of the holiness of the land, are nervous to leave home. Many find it easier to do if they can spend time with family and friends who live there. Without that, it's not always simple.

Overall, embarking on this year is usually a new time of instability undertaken by leaving a stable environment looking for a change. These young people have not had stability for some time now. A lot ot of them aren't wanting a big change at this point.

keym

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:58 pm

I didn't love my year in seminary.
I loved the Land.
The touring the land, meeting the People, spontaneous trips to the Kosel and Geula and the Old City. The taxi drivers. Going to people's houses- seeing how they lived. Meals at teachers and Rebbeim.

Spending 30k for the year and not being able to do any of that? Nope.
Taking your busses to see but not mingle or touch? Nope

And we are living in the times of a pandemic.
I don't think anyone has the right to judge a mother who doesn't want to send her child across the ocean not knowing when they'll be able to come back. Not knowing if the child or family member gets sick (either COVID or not) if travel will be allowed.

amother

Silver

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:05 pm

mandksima wrote:

Your post about me "choosing" to see the negative is extremely presumptive and condescending.
I didn't give you any details so how dare you make a judgment like that?
I don't have a daughter currently deciding whether or not to go but if I did?
Your condescending posts would turn me off and probably be the deciding factor to keep her home.

Page 2 of 8

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next