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Anyone backing out of sending daughter to seminary in EY
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:10 pm
mandksima wrote:
It was such an awesome year for me. The families I met, the places I visited, the Torah and mussar I learned.


Exactly. These experiences made it the awesome year for you.
Not being able to meet families, visit places makes it a very different experience.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:10 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Your post about me "choosing" to see the negative is extremely presumptive and condescending.
I didn't give you any details so how dare you make a judgment like that?
I don't have a daughter currently deciding whether or not to go but if I did?
Your condescending posts would turn me off and probably be the deciding factor to keep her home.

Reishit tzmichat hashkafa is not for everyone.

There are 12 tribes, 13 gates - everyone can find where they belong and accept those who are not of their tribe. Smile
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:14 pm
banana123 wrote:
It's not gaslighting. It's classic reishit tzmichat geulateinu.

This is how a lot of Religious Zionists see things.

Please don't stick your own subjective and incorrect labels on it, just because you disagree with the premise. You can believe that someone is wrong while not disparaging, shaming, or making assumptions about them.


Telling me that all my rabbanim are reshaim because she doesn't agree with them. That's gaslighting.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:15 pm
Also, I also went to seminary around 25 years ago, and everyone in my class went- you had to have a specific reason not to go. I went though I didn't fit well with the school I got into, and the families I went to and visiting others and places made a big difference.

A person who doesn't click well with her seminary or roommates/apartment mates doesn't have a lot of options. There is real worry that one major point of the year is to build that connection to the land, and the circumstances could actually negatively affect the connection by establishing negative associations.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:16 pm
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
Telling me that all my rabbanim are reshaim because she doesn't agree with them. That's gaslighting.

No, it's a hashkafa that everyone who is Torah-true will be reishit tzmichat, and it's impossible to have a frum Jew who is not reishit tzmichat and completely Zionist, willing to pick up and move, to live here no matter what to cost, to die defending the land.

Trust me, I live in Israel, I know these people. They are an extreme segment of the reishit tzmichat but they definitely exist and this is not about gaslighting, it's just a different hashkafa.

I don't agree with it, but I can still live side-by-side and get along with those who do.
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:28 pm
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
...

I wonder if certain people posting on this thread work for or own seminaries. From the people I have spoken to in real life who know people who work for seminaries they are TERRIFIED of the current paradigm changing. They are afraid people will realize girls can survive without the year in an Israeli Seminary and stop sending. This would destroy the entire industry and the livelihoods of many people. That is unfortunate. But I don't have to agree to send my daughter into a situation of sakana because of it.

And you know what. It's actually the reaction of the Seminary industry (and yes, it's an industry with it's own lobbying group now) to the current crisis had actually woken me up. It's plainly obvious that it's all about the money and nothing about the girls at all feom how they have been reacting to the situation. They should have said. "You know what, we realize it's not a year where people feel comfortable sending their children so far from home so we're not going to open this year." Instead they twisted things and came up with a plan that any sane person who really thinks about it would realize is all about them and their pockets.

Bringing religion and the meraglim etc... into this is classic gaslighting. Shame on you!


Ding ding ding.... THIS is why there's such a push for seminary

Honestly, it's not a MUST and it shouldn't be, but everyone feels like it is. It's ridiculous.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:35 pm
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
Ding ding ding.... THIS is why there's such a push for seminary

Honestly, it's not a MUST and it shouldn't be, but everyone feels like it is. It's ridiculous.

I think it's a chicken-and-egg situation, actually.

Seminary in Israel became popular among Americans, so Americans started pushing for it. Even before the State was founded there were people who sent their children to study in Chevron or Jerusalem. They were generally very shtark and wanted their children to follow their path. They were unusual in their generation.

At some point more people who were shtark realized that sending to Israel was working, and sent their children as well. And over the years, with technology and as Jews became more integrated into American society, it became more popular. It was really understood that America is not the best place for raising frum Jews and a year in Israel cements the Jewishness and desire to remain frum.

Like when they started sending to kollel as a hora'as sha'a so that the generation could recoup, Israel was the same thing. At some point it became much less necessary but also became much more standard and popular.

And around when it turned into a "must" for a good shidduch, the institutions in Israel realized that this was a really good market, who held themselves captive, and cashing in on the market might be a smart move. So now you have a situation in which the families feel pressure from their communities, and the seminaries and yeshivas maximize that pressure by tapping into it so that they will be able to make the most of the situation.

Seminaries and yeshivas aside though, year-long students are year-long tourists and contribute a lot to Israel's economy in general, in ways that no other sector does.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:50 pm
mandksima wrote:
I don't propose to change anyone's mind but I have to say my mind. I don't want to be responsible for not speaking up. Perhaps what I write will invoke feelings in some, one never knows. The only reason why American rabbonim would oppose sending young adults overseas at this point has to do with still having their blinders on. The world has totally changed and the place to be, under any circumstances, would be Israel. Rabbis are not meant to be used in place of your own mind and relationship with Hashem. Rabbis made up the great men who were the spies and those and the rest of the rabbis of the time died out in the desert. Today, of all days, on Tu B'av, is when they stopped dying and perhaps today, of all days, you can decide on your own, especially as women who had no part in the sin and who will be the ones to bring in the geula. The rabbis were blamed and received the death sentence. The women were spared but they suffered the losses greatly. Yehoshua and Calev who were the righteous rabbis of the time never suggested staying away from Israel even at the cost of leaving their sheltered lives and becoming conquerers and agricultural hands and builders. The gedolim of Israel today can be compared to Yehshua and Calev. Don't follow the princes of the other tribes.
.


I appreciate your passion. Like you, I say vesechezena and mean it several times a day. Unlike you, libi bmizrach but anochi b'sof maarav.
I find the bolded profoundly disturbing.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:54 pm
mandksima wrote:
We learn over and over again that if the Jews just came to Israel, that alone would have brought moshiach. It is within our power to bring him and it is not necessary to wait passively. The government does not need kedusha at this point. It is like the builders of the beit hamikdash who were unclean and entered the kodesh kodeshim. After the beit hamikdash was finished, the holiness descended and only the kohen gadol once a year could enter. The common laborers who build up the land of Israel are tzaddikim and the land would spit them out if they didn't deserve to be here. I don't hold any judgment on the citizens of Israel, in my mind they are all tzaddikim. Hashem knows their hearts. It is not a golut place. Only a golut time which is changing as we speak.

Running a seminary is a parnassa like any other. I am not in that world at all but I can read your agitation. That is not the only route available. If you don't like it, avoid it by having your child make aliyah and pay like an Israeli, which for my daughter this year in midrasha, is paying around $3K. For a young man, I don't think learning at Mir is anywhere near as expensive. She can live with a family here and go to a local place with some English speakers. Honestly though, my parents spent the money on me going to sem and it was worth every penny to be here and to instill a love of the Land into my heart. If seminaries and yeshivot closed their doors just because of carona, I would really cry. That would be the worst! Hashem is making it so that your children can come even if you can't. It is such a huge bracha. It doesn't even make sense that they are letting students in but Hashem wants it so it goes against logic. It's not so much about money over here anywhere like it is in the US. Most tuition is super cheap and yes, they hike it up for the Americans who are willing to pay for it. I hear you but you should still be feeling like it is a gift to be able to pay money for such an experience. You don't seem to value the time spent here, no matter how much you're being overcharged for it.

I'm not sure what period of sakana you are referring to. She would be leaving a place of sakana (gedolim have mentioned the shechina has left America and is waiting for everyone in Israel now) and coming to a safer place. The whole country is her extended family. Yes, one could survive without seminary. But, when comparing it to what you could easily have, why give it up for mere survival? I don't think you feel the geula like I do. I don't think you understand the kedusha of EY even when we're still at the end of exile, it doesn't matter in terms of benefit for your child. Like I wrote before, one min of living here is worth more than a lifetime of (survival) outside EY. .


The land doesn't automatically spit bad actors out now.
Do you have a source for one minute, etc.?
I cannot believe that American gedolim - and I refer to some whom I've heard speak - are so clueless, and that you know better than they do.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:01 pm
banana123 wrote:
No, it's a hashkafa that everyone who is Torah-true will be reishit tzmichat, and it's impossible to have a frum Jew who is not reishit tzmichat and completely Zionist, willing to pick up and move, to live here no matter what to cost, to die defending the land.

Trust me, I live in Israel, I know these people. They are an extreme segment of the reishit tzmichat but they definitely exist and this is not about gaslighting, it's just a different hashkafa.

I don't agree with it, but I can still live side-by-side and get along with those who do.


I cannot be mekabel that a true gadol would telegraph that attitude to a believing sincere Jew who follows other hashkafos. How did Rav Kook and Rav Yosef Chayim Sonnenfeld, zt"l to both manage to travel together?

Which reminds me of a great story. Years ago there was a Mizrachi Rav, I think his name was Rabbi Gold*, who was traveling the US to raise money for Israel bonds. He spoke to a Jewish, largely not observant audience in Baltimore, and was asked about his host? "How can you bring yourself to stay with Rav Ruderman?" (Zt"l, RY of Ner Israel and perceived as anti-Zionist.) Rabbi Gold replied, "I agree with him on all the mitzvos but one, living in the land of Israel. You folks, we don't agree on anything."


*I assume he's z"l too, but don't know for sure.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:09 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I cannot be mekabel that a true gadol would telegraph that attitude to a believing sincere Jew who follows other hashkafos. How did Rav Kook and Rav Yosef Chayim Sonnenfeld, zt"l to both manage to travel together?

Which reminds me of a great story. Years ago there was a Mizrachi Rav, I think his name was Rabbi Gold*, who was traveling the US to raise money for Israel bonds. He spoke to a Jewish, largely not observant audience in Baltimore, and was asked about his host? "How can you bring yourself to stay with Rav Ruderman?" (Zt"l, RY of Ner Israel and perceived as anti-Zionist.) Rabbi Gold replied, "I agree with him on all the mitzvos but one, living in the land of Israel. You folks, we don't agree on anything."


*I assume he's z"l too, but don't know for sure.

I'm going to assume that A) the true gedolim knew how to overlook the differences and focus on what's the same, as we should all be doing, on this thread and IRL. B) I am not a chassid of Rav Kook and am not a reishit tzmichat person, so I can't say for sure, but I'd assume there is some kind of either taking it to an extreme; or there is some accidental misinterpretation that led to the adoption of this attitude, or led to reishit tzmichat not having this attitude but coming across as having it.

At any rate, I think the bottom line is that we don't have to agree with mandksima but we also don't have to disparage her. We're mature adults, and if we disagree we can just say so nicely, and/ or scroll down, without discussing her personally.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:13 pm
banana123 wrote:
I'm going to assume that A) the true gedolim knew how to overlook the differences and focus on what's the same, as we should all be doing, on this thread and IRL. B) I am not a chassid of Rav Kook and am not a reishit tzmichat person, so I can't say for sure, but I'd assume there is some kind of either taking it to an extreme; or there is some accidental misinterpretation that led to the adoption of this attitude, or led to reishit tzmichat not having this attitude but coming across as having it.

At any rate, I think the bottom line is that we don't have to agree with mandksima but we also don't have to disparage her. We're mature adults, and if we disagree we can just say so nicely, and/ or scroll down, without discussing her personally.


Mussar taken. Wink
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:17 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Mussar taken. Wink

Smile Heart
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:25 pm
banana123 wrote:
It's not gaslighting. It's classic reishit tzmichat geulateinu.

This is how a lot of Religious Zionists see things.

Please don't stick your own subjective and incorrect labels on it, just because you disagree with the premise. You can believe that someone is wrong while not disparaging, shaming, or making assumptions about them.
Thanks for posting, banana. I read her post and was confused at first. It's been a while since I'd heard that mindset.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:31 pm
1ofbillions wrote:
I went to seminary in Israel and gained from the experience in many ways, but would most definitely not spending 20k to send my child there this year. A large part of what makes the experience so great is the independence the girls have, the freedom to roam the country and have chavayot and meet new and interesting people all around the country. They won't have that this year.


I went during one of the intifada years where we were much more restricted from roaming around and it was still a great year.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:34 pm
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
I am not denying in any way the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel. When Moshiach comes I'll be on the first plane over. The modern government of Israel however has no kedusha. It is run by anti religious self hating Jews for the most part. There is corruption and civil unrest in Israel as well. It is still very much golu.

I wonder if certain people posting on this thread work for or own seminaries. From the people I have spoken to in real life who know people who work for seminaries they are TERRIFIED of the current paradigm changing. They are afraid people will realize girls can survive without the year in an Israeli Seminary and stop sending. This would destroy the entire industry and the livelihoods of many people. That is unfortunate. But I don't have to agree to send my daughter into a situation of sakana because of it.

And you know what. It's actually the reaction of the Seminary industry (and yes, it's an industry with it's own lobbying group now) to the current crisis had actually woken me up. It's plainly obvious that it's all about the money and nothing about the girls at all feom how they have been reacting to the situation. They should have said. "You know what, we realize it's not a year where people feel comfortable sending their children so far from home so we're not going to open this year." Instead they twisted things and came up with a plan that any sane person who really thinks about it would realize is all about them and their pockets.

Bringing religion and the meraglim etc... into this is classic gaslighting. Shame on you!


It’s not really going to be any safer sitting in a class at Touro than in class in seminary.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:36 pm
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
I went during one of the intifada years where we were much more restricted from roaming around and it was still a great year.


And when you were locked down, it was with the whole seminary. Your whole building. And you probably had the kind of Tishrei experience the girls won't have, if they even get there for Tishrei. I'm not saying don't send, I don't know what I'd do with a girl in the parsha. At least the boys can learn, with avira d'EY machkim as their motto.
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First Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:54 pm
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
It’s not really going to be any safer sitting in a class at Touro than in class in seminary.


It is gonna be a lot cheaper for sure.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 6:01 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Just one point. The spies were not "rabbis," and neither was Calev. Yehoshua was a "rabbi" but only in the sense that he was Moshe's top student.

I don't even think the spies were chosen from among the judges of the time.


This thread has no relevance to me but I couldn't continue reading further without correcting. The possuk clearly says they were "anashim" which rashi says implies they were top tier great people. They were tzaddikim.
(Chassidus explains that the reason they didnt want to enter was because they mistakenly thought that the midbar lifestyle which was entirely focused on learning torah and not on physical worldly involvement was ideal. This is true for some select rare gedolim like themselves but the mistake was thinking that this also applied to the masses.)
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 9:47 pm
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
This thread has no relevance to me but I couldn't continue reading further without correcting. The possuk clearly says they were "anashim" which rashi says implies they were top tier great people. They were tzaddikim.
(Chassidus explains that the reason they didnt want to enter was because they mistakenly thought that the midbar lifestyle which was entirely focused on learning torah and not on physical worldly involvement was ideal. This is true for some select rare gedolim like themselves but the mistake was thinking that this also applied to the masses.)


I've heard this too, not just from Chassidus. I've heard other possible explanations too. But the fact remains that yes, they were anashim with all that that implies.
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