Does hashem want different things from different communities

amother

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:30 am

Reading the thread about a woman with a strict dayan makes me wonder about the sensibility of the whole shayla system. When a rav paskens a shaiyla, he is answering what he believes hashem wants.

It seems incredibly strange and far fetched that hashem truly wants different things from the women in Monroe or williamsburg, than from the women in flatbush or elsewhere. So after 120 we all go up and there and 2 women who had the exact same shayla, 1 asked her rav in Willy, and the other asked her young israel rabbi, and hashem wants both these women to proceed differently, even though they had the same shayla, both followed halacha perfectly by following their rabbi even though they had the opposite psak?

Does this make sense?

Jeanette

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:40 am

This is an interesting question.

First of all, there were 12 shvatim which represented 12 different paths in avodas Hashem. There's also the concept of shivim panim laTorah. It's perfectly plausible that Hashem wants different things from different people.

The question is how much flexibility we have in choosing our own path and derech in serving Hashem. If you're not happy with the community that you're born in to, can you switch? I don't think you can pick and choose whether or not to follow your Rav's psak, but you can choose which Rav to go to with your shailos. I know some communities make it harder to leave than others. And once you've picked a Rav then you need to be consistent in following that Rav even when what he says is uncomfortable for you.

I know there are certain things you have to be matir neder if you want to drop, like if you kept CY/PY and want to stop. Maybe certain minhagim should not be dropped without asking a shailah. But it is possible for a litvish person to become more chassidish or vice versa, or people to move from L to R on the spectrum or vice versa, and still be serving Hashem the way they're meant to be.

Genius

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:42 am

I already wrote this in the past but I’ll write it again. My HS teacher told this to us and I think it explains this concept beautifully.
When the yidden crossed the yam suf each shevet went separately. They were divided by a glass wall. The lesson? We should walk the path of our fathers but know that other yidden walk a different path. We are all headed to the same place we just walk different paths.

Last edited by Genius on Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:48 am

Most Dayanim pasken shaylos according to the level of the person asking.
One dayan can give a different pesak to a few of his followers.

Just like every person has a different tafkid, I have come to the realization that the same is with other religions.
Hashem made others Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Athiest, ETC, because that is the best way for them to fullfill their tafkid and serve him.

Mothers

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:05 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Ovdei avodah zarah are serving Hashem??? Where do you see that Hashem wants people to be ovdei avodah zarah?

leah233

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:16 am

Hashem does not want different things from different communities per se but there is a variation of what he expects from different people based on their natures and abilities.

Therefore there are different communities so that those who would be better off serving Hashem in a given capacity will have a community to do it in, Rabbonim to guide them etc.

Most people would acknowledge the need for communities other than their own in the frum world.
Not that those communities are better but rather that there are people who are better suited for them.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:16 am

Of course it makes sense. There are millions of jews all over the world. And so many different communities and different cultures snd different shitot and different this snd different that.
As per your sentence about the sensibility of asking questions to rabbis, that also has different shitot. Some communities ask everything. Others ask almost nothing.
Thats the beauty of bnei yisrael. We are all so different yet the same. And the differences is what separates us and the sameness is what brings us together.

chestnut

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:24 am

Excellent question!

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Do Dayanim really have such relationships with all those who ask that they know their levels? Seems farfetched.

amother

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:24 am

genius wrote:

Yes. It’s called minhag.

Words like "minhag, eilu v'eilu, and shivim panim l'torah, all seem like fallback answers to attempt to explain why it's ok that we are all doing different things yet somehow we are all doing it correctly.

Does hashem mind if I wear a long sheital? Does hashem mind if I listen to secular music? My rav says it's ok, your says it's not. They're both right? I used to work with a very modern women who would leave her TV on before shabbos. I have no idea if she asked a rabbi (probably not) but in her community this is not a big deal. Is there a reference in the torah of different minhagim and of people actually doing things differently?

giselle

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:38 am

sequoia wrote:

What a great way to ruin shabbos.

I don’t think it has much to do with modern. Definitely know a heimish lady who leaves her radio on. It’s a need for noise.

Anyway, OP, what are you really, truly asking? “Should everyone be chareidi?” No.

Well according to a poster on a locked thread, chassidim are frummer than all other Jews. Not saying OP implied that at all, but I guess that thought process does exist...

Genius

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:43 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There are things we do because they are a d’oraisa then there are things we do because they are d’rabbanan then there are things we do because they are a minhag.
With some things there is more leeway than with others

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:44 am

Of course there are many people that believe their way of living frumkeit is the only way.
But that would be wrong and unfortunate.
I know another shita, where for ME my way of frumkeit is right, but for joe shmoe over there his way is right.
Its not all black and white, lots and lots of grey. And there are so many different drachim to live judausm. Not just one. Never was only one way.

Genius

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 10:45 am

giselle wrote:

Well according to a poster on a locked thread, chassidim are frummer than all other Jews. Not saying OP implied that at all, but I guess that thought process does exist...

Chassidim serve Hashem the way their parents served Him and people of different backgrounds serve Him the way their parents taught them.
Each to their own. It shouldn’t be a scale.

Elfrida

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:00 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I used to work with a very modern women who would leave her TV on before shabbos. I have no idea if she asked a rabbi (probably not) but in her community this is not a big deal. Is there a reference in the torah of different minhagim and of people actually doing things differently?

So she kept halacha according to the strict letter of the law. She was also required to exercise self control and not change channels. From a purely technical point of view, there is no difference between leaving the television on and leaving the bathroom light on - which is probably something we all do.

The difference is that she wanted to prioritize her regular life, and maintain that as much as possible without technically being mechallel Shabbat. She wanted Shabbos to fit around her life. Other people (probably most people here) see Shabbos as a priority, and arrange their life around the requirements of Shabbos.

When one prioritizes Shabbos, and arranges ones life to fit that, HKB'H becomes a much stronger factor in ones life, and you can develop a greater relationship with him. Two people can have the same job, and one will turn up and do the basic requirements and go home again. He had his own life which is nothing to do with the job. The other will stay late, and maybe take work home or spend time reading and studying to improve his performance on the job. His entire life is bound up with his job.

Both of them have filled the job requirements, but one has invested far more and done them more perfectly than the other. When you consider that our job is serving the Master of the Universe it makes sense to invest and do it as perfectly as possible. But it doesn't mean that someone who does the basics to follow His directions is wrong.