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Does hashem want different things from different communities
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:37 pm
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
OP can you link to the thread you are referring to?


Bump
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:55 pm
Mothers wrote:
Ovdei avodah zarah are serving Hashem??? Where do you see that Hashem wants people to be ovdei avodah zarah?


God created their religion. It must serve some kind of tafkid.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:56 pm
chestnut wrote:
Excellent question!
Do Dayanim really have such relationships with all those who ask that they know their levels? Seems farfetched.


In my community people ask the dayan of their shul. They basically know if the person asking is a machmir or a meikel.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 6:45 am
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
God created their religion. It must serve some kind of tafkid.


G-d did? I rather think man did.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:18 am
avrahamama wrote:
As parents we give different responses to our children as things come along. We know what each child needs and we still respond within the framework of what we feel aligns with our values. But each child is a world of their own and the expectations are different.

Perhaps our relationship to HKBH is the same? And so whatever community we are (part of at that moment) of is what HKBH wants for us? And needs from us?



I hear you. If I extend what your'e saying to what I'm referring to it would mean that when hashem gave the torah to us and told all of us to "rest on shabbos", he meant 100 different things. My hilchos shabbos is different than your hilchos shabbos, which is different than the next persons hilchos shabbos. Ok, maybe. In the time of Moshe rabbeinu was it like that? Were people saying that we are 12 shvatim so we all have different rules?

As a simple example we just finished the 9 days. In some communities instructional swimming is allowed. In other communities it's forbidden. Obviously the 9 days is not from the torah, but are you saying that hashem is fine with this community swimming, but there will be a din v'cheshbon if someone from the next community does instructional swim?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:26 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Wow, Shabbat, I can't believe we agree!!! Very well said.
LOL I didnt even see that you replied before me until I saw this reply Smile
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:30 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Of course there are many people that believe their way of living frumkeit is the only way.
But that would be wrong and unfortunate.
I know another shita, where for ME my way of frumkeit is right, but for joe shmoe over there his way is right.
Its not all black and white, lots and lots of grey. And there are so many different drachim to live judausm. Not just one. Never was only one way.



Is the lots of grey a beautiful thing or is it because we don't know?


For example some people ask a million shaylos about intimacy. Others were taught that pretty much everything between a husband and wife is permitted. Again, does hashem have 100 set of rules? If you live in this community you must ask your rav everything and the result will be many things are assur. If you live in the next community everything is mutter and no need to ask.

If someone in the community where they always ask every little thing decides she no longer wants to ask so many shaylos anymore, she is committing a sin. But the people down the road don't have to ask anything.

To me this looks like confusion more than different minhagim.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:34 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the lots of grey a beautiful thing or is it because we don't know?


For example some people ask a million shaylos about intimacy. Others were taught that pretty much everything between a husband and wife is permitted. Again, does hashem have 100 set of rules? If you live in this community you must ask your rav everything and the result will be many things are assur. If you live in the next community everything is mutter and no need to ask.

If someone in the community where they always ask every little thing decides she no longer wants to ask so many shaylos anymore, she is committing a sin. But the people down the road don't have to ask anything.

To me this looks like confusion more than different minhagim.
Who said people are doing differently than the next person because they dont know? I think its rather they learned it differently than the next person.
And personally I think the different shades of grey are wonderful. If every single frum jew was teh same, frumkeit would be extremely dull.
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lilies




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:36 am
Op is this a purely logical discussion or is there something bothering you personally regarding this topic?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 7:51 am
lilies wrote:
Op is this a purely logical discussion or is there something bothering you personally regarding this topic?



Good question. I guess I want to know the real truth. Does hashem really and truly have a different set of rules for everyone? I've lived in communities where kids skateboard on shabbos and in communities where this would be considered outright chillul shabbos. Did we convince ourselves that hashem has a different set of hilchos shabbos for people in Lakewood as opposed to teaneck NJ, or does hashem really have a different rulebook?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:07 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Who said people are doing differently than the next person because they dont know? I think its rather they learned it differently than the next person.
And personally I think the different shades of grey are wonderful. If every single frum jew was teh same, frumkeit would be extremely dull.




Look at the thread you started a few days ago. You argued that children conceived during nidah and without regard to taharas hamishpacha should not be considered flawed in any way. (By the way I agree with you.) But there are rabbanim who hold that the neshama of these babies have a blemish. Therefore it is better not to marry them. This is what they hold. This is what they were taught. You say.....they are wrong. You are not saying that there are several drachim, all are beautiful. You're saying your derech is correct and beautiful, and theirs is wrong. I can probably find 5 posts a day on this site where people argue and believe they are correct and other drachim are all wrong.

So why don't you say that people who have a minhag not to marry a person whose parents weren't frum because they might have been conceived during nidah have a beautiful (albeit different) derech?
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:10 am
Well, Syrians don’t accept geirim at all, and that’s legitimate for them.

I dunno. Let a hundred flowers bloom...
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:29 am
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
God created their religion. It must serve some kind of tafkid.

I think it's a dangerous line of thought to suggest that all movements that exist for generations on end must somehow be fulfilling Hashem's will. I mean, there are drug cartels, there are religious extremists who murder their enemies, there have been historical injustices that went on for generations with the approval of religious authorities.

Say, rather, that movements/religions/etc that survive the generations must have some kernel of truth. They survive because, like you said, they serve an important tafkid. But they can still be 80% garbage, and Hashem's will might be that their followers throw away that 80% and keep only the part that's good and pure.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:30 am
Different things are expected from different people, yes.

If people say chassidish people are frummer, then it also comes with more obligation too. Chassidim are machmir & do more than halacha, this is the way it was set up to serve Hashem to the utmost, not just bare bones halacha. The chumros are not halacha though, it's like getting schar for hiddur mitzvah. Let's say mitzvah is use esrog on sukkos, but if you buy a nicer esrog, you will get schar, for hiddur mitzvah, doesn't mean your neighbors simple one is not kosher.

The expectation is according to the level of the individual, even from Hashem.

Let's say a woman grew up in a family of tichels but decides to wear a wig, for her it's going a level lower. Otoh, for the person who grew up with no covered hair, and then decides to sacrifice & cover her hair with a wig, that is commendable & she will get schar for the wig. (Might even get more schar, than other women for the wig, because it was a bigger sacrifice for her to wear the wig.
Same with ffb & bt. Ffb does things from rote, she might do more mitzvos but not with passion, maybe Hashem wants more heart from her, and also expects more from her.
Otoh, BT is still learning, but every baby step is a huge sacrifice for her, and those have tremendous value by Hashem even if she not keeping everything yet 100%.
BT might get more schar even if she doing less. BT going from pants to mini skirt is level up. FFB going from knee length skirt to mini skirt is level down & might even get punished for it, because she knows better.

It says BT stands higher than tzadik.

It also says tzadikim are judged k'chut hasareh. What is wrong for them, might not be wrong for avg person, as they are looked up to & are at a different level.

Just like you expect different things from your 10 yr old, than your 2 yr old.

Also from bright student you expect 100% on test, and for struggling student you will give modified test. BOTH will get the 100% but on different levels.
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:34 am
I don’t know what hashem wants. I’m just trying to do my best. Obviously looking at the world and the Tora we don’t understand hashem because we are so low
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:41 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the lots of grey a beautiful thing or is it because we don't know?

Just to add a little more grey... It's both.

Some things aren't clear today because we don't have a Sanhedrin. In an ideal world, they would be clear, and all rabbis would agree on the basic halacha. In these cases, the shades of grey are because we don't know.

OTOH, even in a world with a sanhedrin, you'd get situations where one rav says A and another says B (about a specific case, even though they both agree what the general halacha is). In that case, there are no shades of grey - for whoever asked the first rav, it's A, for whoever asked the second, it's B. לא בשמיים היא

And beyond that - most questions aren't so simple, since they involve multiple mitzvot, or multiple principles. Keeping the 9 days is important; knowing how to swim is important (v'nishmartem). Keeping niddah is important; a couple being able to be together in tahara whenever it's allowed is important.

And that's where grey is beautiful. Because it's not really a hodgepodge of wrong and right, it's a mix of right and right. One kind of right emphasizes the national mourning of the 9 days; another kind of right emphasizes consideration for workers (the swim teachers who can't afford to lose a week's pay) and the importance of knowing how to swim.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:46 am
And then some things are personal choice. Eg kids using skateboards/ bikes/ etc on Shabbat. Everyone agrees that babies have no obligation to keep Shabbat; everyone agrees that 12/13 year olds do. There's a general consensus about what we teach at what ages.

But there's still plenty of room for individual communities or even individual families to make decisions about when it's time for their kids to learn certain things, or start practicing certain mitzvot.

(History vs now is yet another type of situation. People used to think differently about tznius, and a million other things, because the entire structure of Jewish life used to be different. Much more community/tradition-focused, and less book/law-focused. It's not that we used to think Hashem wants one thing, and then changed our minds - it's that the whole set of tools we use to figure out what 'ratzon Hashem' is is different.

In the end, all any of us can do is our best.)
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:51 am
Not only if rav says it's kosher then it's kosher, but even if it were trief, & rav paskens kosher, then psak in shmayim gets overturned, to the way rav paskens down here. Such is their power, therefore it's important to ask rav & not paskens on own, it's sort of on his achrayos if you followed daas Torah & it even becomes kosher/permissible for you.

Another point, that ranbanim pasken according to generation.

After ww2 many ranbanim were matter wigs because of the low spirits of the survivors. They knew if they only allowed tichels at the time, then most people wouldn't cover their hair at all.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 8:57 am
Please please dont bring the topic of wigs and tznius in to this conversation. If a woman doesnt cover her hair and than goes and buys a wig that looks nicer than her hair she does not receive tons of schar- this is a real sheker promoted again to make people feel good. She is now enchancing her appearance and that is the complete opposite of the whole purpose of the head covering. You can't make a blanket statement like that about wigs. If a woman puts on a wiggy wig that detracts from her beauty thats fulfilling the point of the mitzvah. Im not saying we should be judging anyone but please lets call a spade a spade- most of todays wigs are fashion accessories. Thats it. Hashem commanded us to cover our hair as married women- there are countless sources explaining the point of the mitzvah which is to conceal a womans main beauty, her hair, from other men. Putting nice hair on top of hair is defeating the whole point. Its hypocritical and making a joke out of the mitzvah. Hashem didnt command women to cut their hair short in to nice refined hair styles! We were commanded to cover the beauty of our hair with an obvious less beautiful head covering.
Tznius in general doesnt have minhagim, the more covered up, the less attracting to men - the more modest. It has nothing to do with minhagim. Hashem loves modesty- its the most important mitzvah for a woman (its compared to a man's torah learning). The more modest we are the better.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 05 2020, 9:03 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Please please dont bring the topic of wigs and tznius in to this conversation. If a woman doesnt cover her hair and than goes and buys a wig that looks nicer than her hair she does not receive tons of schar- this is a real sheker promoted again to make people feel good. She is now enchancing her appearance and that is the complete opposite of the whole purpose of the head covering. You can't make a blanket statement like that about wigs. If a woman puts on a wiggy wig that detracts from her beauty thats fulfilling the point of the mitzvah. Im not saying we should be judging anyone but please lets call a spade a spade- most of todays wigs are fashion accessories. Thats it. Hashem commanded us to cover our hair as married women- there are countless sources explaining the point of the mitzvah which is to conceal a womans main beauty, her hair, from other men. Putting nice hair on top of hair is defeating the whole point. Its hypocritical and making a joke out of the mitzvah. Hashem didnt command women to cut their hair short in to nice refined hair styles! We were commanded to cover the beauty of our hair with an obvious less beautiful head covering.
Tznius in general doesnt have minhagim, the more covered up, the less attracting to men - the more modest. It has nothing to do with minhagim. Hashem loves modesty- its the most important mitzvah for a woman (its compared to a man's torah learning). The more modest we are the better.


Cool cool cool

So are you fine with long skirts?
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