Does hashem want different things from different communities

BadTichelDay

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:37 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Tznius is the most inportant mitzvah a woman has. When Hashem created chava the only statement he made over every limb was she should be a modest woman over and over again.
It is the only mitzvah woman do every second of the day and it affects everyone around her. The peleh yoetz said that the majority of a womand reward and punishment in the next world is based on her modesty. The vilna goan said that a womans modesty is equivelent to a mans torah learning.
Anyways you could tell how important the topic is by the reaction to the topic- it is also the hardest mitzvah for women to do properly. Its the biggest sacrifice for a woman to downplay her looks outside.
In addition the only time in the torah where it says Hashem leaves us is in devarim where is says that Hashem leaves when our camps are not holy. Thats pretty bad
The chofetz chaim said that the final war before moshiach comes will be between modesty and immodesty. This is so clear today!

I think the great gaps are in hashkafa, not halacha. We make very different assumptions on what Hashem wants from us. Maybe this is an example.

I'm DL and modern and we do *not* hold that tzniut is the most important mitzva for a woman.
There is an obligation to be tzanu'ah but that's it. It's one mitzva among many.
Now, I do happen to wear tichels/scarves and ankle length skirts. I want to look modest, by my community's standards.
But I see it more as a kind of uniform, signaling to the world "mitzva observant woman of the DL type here". I see it basically as a way of showing I believe in Hashem. As I work in a mostly secular environment, it does carry that message.

But I never thought that my s'char in olam haba depends on that. Really not.
I mean, on clothes?? All my attempts at chesed, tefillah, learning, you name it, are useless because what counts is the amount and shape of textiles on my body? Why not wear a burka then? Should be the ideal by that logic.
And while it's hard to disagree with the Vilna Gaon, it then really seems that men got the better deal out of life - they get their s'char for learning Torah, which is beautiful, interesting, stimulating and fosters a deep connection to Hashem. We women get s'char for - clothes. Mindless pieces of textile. Why are we human at all? Why were we given a mind and a soul then if we are only a body that needs to be covered in cloth? A scarecrow could do it.

I'm trying to stay fair but I find it extremely hard to find any beauty or merit in that approach. It makes me bitter. And I hope that is not what Hashem wants from me.

I think different communities need different approaches to Hashem. What does He want? Maybe that we are honest with ourselves and do the best we can to serve Him without looking down on others who emphasize different aspects of service.

Maybe the King's palace, so to say, needs guards, cooks, gardeners and butlers and they all do His will, even if each of them has a different focus.
While immaculate dress and manners are essential for a butler, a gardener needs strength and a cook creativity and a guard discipline. They all do the will of the King. What does He want - that they all serve in their specific function.

essie14

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 3:45 pm

BadTichelDay wrote:

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 4:09 pm

All the mitzvos are important- what you wrote is true. Tznius though is the most important because it does greatly affect a womans spiritual level. How we dress on the outside has a profound effect on the inside of a woman. It also greatly effects all the men around her and can can cause men to lose their olam hoba if a woman is not modest.
If a woman davens, makes challah, keeps shabbos (which is all really between her and Hashem) but is not modest and causes men to stumble, thats a big problem. She is held accountable for every sin. It sounds awful but if there is no reward and punishment there is no justice in this world.
The biggest chesed a woman can do is to dress modestly. Its a chesed for the men, for other peoples marriages etc... without modesty we lose the foundation of yiddishkeit. The Chazon Ish said that tznius protects a woman from the evil inclination. Being modest helps a woman excel in all other areas of spirituality. When a woman is modest, the shechina dwells on her and therefore makes it easier for her to perform other mitzvos and excel in middos.
Its like the foundation of a home.
Its really not depressing at all. Its a privilege and a zechus to have the mitzvah of modesty. And if we know if makes Hashem so happy than how could it be depressing?
Is it challenging? For sure! But that just increases the reward. Theres a reason why so many women have seen such great yeshuos for taking on kaballahs in modesty. If someone breaks their nature for Hashem, Hashem will break nature for them and is more likely to send a yeshua.
It doesnt mean that a woman is only defined by the modest clothes and head covering she wears- but this mitzvah does impact all aspects of her life and all thise around her.

amother

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 4:45 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

All of what you said might be true....or might not be true. Do we know what hashem holds as the greatest mitzvah for women? You say it's tznius. Maybe it's lighting candles. Maybe it's taharas hamishpacha. It seems like you were raised believing a certain way. I don't really know how we know witch mitzvah hashem considers most important.

chanchy123

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 5:23 pm

I came late to this party and haven’t read most posts. But here are my two cents. Hashem wants us to follow the rules of the Torah, different communities, rabbis, shitas interpret the rule of the Torah in different ways. We all try our best on the path that seems the most true to us. Is everyone on the correct path, obviously not. But I do believe you get brownie points for trying your best and following Halacha to the best if your knowledge capability and understanding. So while I can be outraged at a certain psak and certain it is categorically against Halacha and what Hashem wants us to do in this world, I can respect that the rav who gave the psak did his best to interpret Halacha according to his limited tools and just hope Hashem knows that his heart is in the right place.
We are all trying our best to do what’s right and serve Hashem to the best of our abilities and knowledge.
That’s regarding Halacha, as far as derech goes I think we all have different missions in this world and we’ve come to this world to play different roles in different capacities and with different emphasises.

dankbar

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 5:25 pm

Mothers wrote:

Ovdei avodah zarah are serving Hashem??? Where do you see that Hashem wants people to be ovdei avodah zarah?

I think there is this concept of different religions to give us bechirah. Also to give the yidden more schar. If serving Hashem is the only option, without any other alternative it wouldn't be a big deal to do it, but being that there are other options but we seek out the truth & choose this path, we get greater schar.

As a side note Non Jews also have some mitzvos to follow & they have bechira to choose whether to believe in Hashem or not & they will be rewarded if they do & get punished if they transgress their 7 mitzvos.

amother

Copper

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 9:14 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Why do you think we are supposed to cover our hair as married women?? To be uncomfortable??
There are many torah sources that explain how the hair of a married woman becomes erva after marriage. I could list them but I dont think womem are interested (let me know if you would like and ill post some of them)
One - saar bieisha erva. The definition of erva according to everyone is a body part that could cause attraction to men. Thats why these parts need to be covered when a man says words of kedusha. A married womans hair is called erva- it needs to be covered like elbows and knees. The whole reason for the mitzvah is modesty
And yes everyone could be in denial about the mitzvah of tznius but the main point of tznius and hair covering is to prevent procovative attention from men. Thats why in private or in front of women there is no actual halacha of tznius and hair covering.
Modesty doesnt mean frumpy- it means dignified, regal, neat and not attracting to men. The term beautiful today according to secular society usually indicates not modest. We are supposed to be beautiful at home for our husbands. Not in the streets.
The more modest a woman is the more schar she gets and the happier she makes Hashem.
Long skirts are not modern and its illogical to say that unless the skirt is tight. There are seforim now available about this topic. And covering your hair with a pretty wig is not modest- I think women should be honest here. If you went to hollywood and asked the actresses there if they are wearing their wigs for modesty they would laugh in your face! Short or long they are wearing wigs to look better and for glamour.
A woman who is wearing a nice wig is not going to get the same schar as a woman who wears a tichel. She might not get any schar if she is causing more men to look at her. Many Gedolin have said this too.
Women want to wear nice wigs- fine- but please dont make it in to a big mitzvah. I know so many people who were turned off from orthodoxy because of the hypocricy of todays wigs.

Every once in a while someone comes to Imamother with an anti-sheitel agenda.
Can you please stop misleading women with inaccurate "information?"
It is a big mitzva to cover your hair- sheitel, tichel, hat, scarf.
Leave it alone already. Anti-sheitel posts are wildly inaccurate, vague on "sources," and just plain annoying.

salt

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 6:51 am

I haven't read anything, just the first few posts and the last few.

But I wanted to make some points.

About what the most important mitzva is. There are several mitzvot that chazal say are "keneged kulam" - I guess that means some kind of "most important" - eg. Talmud Torah (masechet peah?), and Yishuv Eretz Yisrael (sifri on sefer devraim?) *

Does it say anywhere that Tznius is also keneged kulam? I don't know where that's written in the sources. A source is not a seminary teacher btw Confused

It says in perek 'bameh madlikim' - that a women can die in child birth chas veshalom if she doesn't keep nidda, challa and candles carefully - it doesn't say tznius.

So my first main point so far is, that some teachers/spiritual leaders emphasize a certain mitzva, but it could be just in order to stress it's important for a certain reason, at a certain time, to a certain audience.
It doesn't mean that if a different teacher/spiritual leader is emphasizing a different mitzva, that it's more or less important, or more or less true - it's just different circumstances.

There's the famous midrash about R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua that argued about the tahara of an oven, and eventually a Bat Kol came down saying what the correct halacha is, and even so, Hashem said "lo bashamyaim hee" - you decide for yourselves, the halachic decisions are in YOUR hands.

*[excuse me if my sources are incorrect- I got them from a quick google search]

behappy2

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 10:04 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

You start off saying that considering tznius to be the most important mitzvah for woman is insulting and then end off saying that we all have diff. Jobs. You can't have it both ways, looking down on those who consider tznius to be highest priority and then saying we are all equal.

amother

Blush

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 10:54 am

I didn't read the whole thread but Imho, Hashem wants one thing. Each of us are born in different situations, different circumstances, different ideas of yiddishkeit and different personalities. He wants us to grow spiritually without compromising our emotional health etc. Therefore, whatever takes you there, THAT is what Hashem wants.

Here is an example: a friend of mine, a BT told me she was on her death bed (but survived and is healthy now) and had an out of body experience where she saw herself going to shamayim and over there she saw her brother who had passed away years before. This brother was not religious and in very bad shape.. totally not a good person, in fact he was the opposite. He (both of them) come from an extremely abusive background where they were nearly killed by their parents a few times. They had a real horrifying upbringing. She couldn't believe what she saw when she was up there, her brothers face was shining and he looked so happy and good. Her brother told her "it's not your time yet" My friend in the end woke up and got well but learned a powerful lesson.

Hashem definitely didn't want much from that broken boy.

amother

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 11:42 am

salt wrote:

[u]

How do you explain that of the millions of babies born every year, there doesn't appear to be any statistical connection to mothers that didn't keep nidda, challah, and candles, dying during birth. I realize chazal said it, but how do we understand it?

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 11:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

First of all hashem didn't command us to cover our hair. We learn it from a reference from a Sotah. She is told to take off her head covering. .

yes, we learn it from Sotah, but the word used, Ufara haKohen et rosha, is also interpreted as "unbraids" or "messes up" rather than "uncovers." Presumably licentious women wore their hair loose while modest ones wore theirs neatly braided or tied up in some fashion. One commentary even claims that "ufara" means "grows it long" and comes from a Nazir who is commanded "ufara et rosho" which means growing it long. in this case the commentary says it means unbraiding or untying, because when hair is unbraided it appears longer than it did when it was braided. So it is just as valid to say that women should braid their hair or wear it short as it is to say they must cover it.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:19 pm

sequoia wrote:

Well, long loose hair is also considered s-xually inviting in the secular world.

Exactly--long and loose. Not long and confined, and not short. Back in the day when many shomer shabbos women didn't cover their hair, most wore it short, and those who kept it long wore it in a bun or similar tightly confined style. Just look at old pictures.

In fact, if you go back to the 18th-19th centuries, the only proper females who wore long, loose hair were little girls, and even they for the most part wore braids or ponytails--though this may have been for reasons of practicality in an age when No More Tangles didn't exist. "Putting your hair up" was a rite of passage that meant you were no longer a child but a young lady, the way wearing high heels or lipstick was a similar rite in a later era.

Speaking of which-- Other than a driver's license, is there a current social, not biological, hallmark of a young lady that sets her apart from a child?

Elfrida

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 2:57 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

We don't.

From Pirkei Avot, Perek 2, Mishnah 1:

Quote:

רבי אומר, איזוהי דרך ישרה שיבור לו האדם, כל שהיא תפארת לעושיה ותפארת לו מן האדם.

והוי זהירא במצוה קלה כבחמורה, שאין אתה יודע מתן שכרן של מצוות.

Be as careful with a small mitzvah as with a more severe one because we do not know how the reward for mitzvot is given.

What is up to us is to put effort into our avodat Hashem, and do all mitzvot as well as we can. For the sake of serving Him in the best way, not for the reward we will get.