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Discussion on the Daf - Eiruvin
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 8:54 am
For anyone who wants to learn the daf with animated 3D CAD to illustrate — LIVE as he gives over the daf — my son is giving doing a nightly Daf Yomi using Sketchup Pro, the same CAD program I use in my kitchen and residential design business: https://www.facebook.com/hallel.newman

Anyone can watch and Hallel is both edifying and entertaining.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 9:08 am
Aylat wrote:
Aha, thank you! Is that coming up in פרק ב?


It’s in Rashi on 10a.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 9:12 am
Aylat wrote:
So my daf shiur isn't loading, probably because of some changes I made to Internet settings. While I'm waiting for a callback from technical support...

I have a basic question. The existence of community eiruvim is predicated on the neighbourhood not being a רשות הרבים מדאורייתא. But the population and traffic density in most urban neighbourhoods is surely much higher than in the towns and villages of Chazal. And the Gemara seems to take for granted that these are רשות הרבים מדאורייתא. ???


So according to many Sefardim who follow the Mechaber’s definition of Reshut Harabim being 16 amot, most streets classify as a RH and are not fixed by an Eruv. According to Ashkenazim who follow the Rama’s definition of RH being a place traversed by 600,000 daily, it is still very difficult to classify even an urban area as a RH. However, there are many dense urban areas a highways that do classify as such, making them unable to be fixed by an Eruv.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:01 pm
malki2 wrote:
So according to many Sefardim who follow the Mechaber’s definition of Reshut Harabim being 16 amot, most streets classify as a RH and are not fixed by an Eruv. According to Ashkenazim who follow the Rama’s definition of RH being a place traversed by 600,000 daily, it is still very difficult to classify even an urban area as a RH. However, there are many dense urban areas a highways that do classify as such, making them unable to be fixed by an Eruv.


But how do the Ashkenazi poskim (Rema onwards) reconcile the רשות הרבים villages in the Gemara.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:02 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
For anyone who wants to learn the daf with animated 3D CAD to illustrate — LIVE as he gives over the daf — my son is giving doing a nightly Daf Yomi using Sketchup Pro, the same CAD program I use in my kitchen and residential design business: https://www.facebook.com/hallel.newman

Anyone can watch and Hallel is both edifying and entertaining.


Wow, awesome! Thanks for posting.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:10 pm
Aylat wrote:
So my daf shiur isn't loading, probably because of some changes I made to Internet settings. While I'm waiting for a callback from technical support...

I have a basic question. The existence of community eiruvim is predicated on the neighbourhood not being a רשות הרבים מדאורייתא. But the population and traffic density in most urban neighbourhoods is surely much higher than in the towns and villages of Chazal. And the Gemara seems to take for granted that these are רשות הרבים מדאורייתא. ???


If there are 600000 its a RR according to some rishonim.
Apparently in a very long complicated mishna brura we dont poskin like that today.
Then the question 600000 living there permanently
Just traveling on road
What if city gates open. Do traffic lites cut off the shiur.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:17 pm
This is a very thorough explanation of it

https://www.torontoeruv.org/principles/
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:26 pm
Aylat wrote:
But how do the Ashkenazi poskim (Rema onwards) reconcile the רשות הרבים villages in the Gemara.


You can’t make an Eruv in a RH.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 1:29 pm
Eruvin 14

If anyone is familiar with crowdfunding or think tanks.
For example, the way we helped Green make a wedding, here a few years ago, or FF last year , the source originally is in todays daf.

I reaf a book by James Surowlecki

“The Wisdom of Crowds,” who advances the theory that the collective problem-solving of crowds often produces more accurate results than small groups of experts. Even if you haven’t read it, you may have benefited from its key ideas if you ever crowdsourced a recommendation on Facebook.


Surowiecki attributes some of his thinking to the work of Sir Francis Galton, a 19th-century English scholar. But he probably didn’t know that aspects of his theory have even earlier roots -- notably in a rabbinic idea we encounter on today’s daf.


The mishnah discusses the size requirements for lchi’in (לְחָיַיִן), the side posts that are used to create a doorway of sorts that permits one to carry in a three-sided alleyway on Shabbat. Naturally, there is a dispute. The mishnah says the posts may be any width, but Rabbi Yosei believes they must be at least three handbreadths wide. There is a fair amount of confusion in the Gemara about Rabbi Yosei’s position and how it was transmitted over the centuries, which impedes the rabbis’ ability to figure out the law.


Eventually, the discussion ends with this:

Rava bar Rav Ḥanan said to Abaye: What is the accepted halakha with regard to the width of a side post? He said to him: Go out and observe what the people are doing; it is common practice to rely on a side post of minimal width.



This phrase “go out and see what the people are doing” -- pok hazi mai ama davar, in the original -- is a striking way to end a legal discourse. Normally, the rabbis try to argue out the law through intellectually rigorous reasoning. But here (and in 13 other places in the entire Talmud) they decide to determine the law by going out into the community and seeing what the Jewish people are doing.



This concept is predicated on the assumption that the communal practice reflects a faithfully transmitted tradition. Had Rava bar Rav Hanan gone out and found that the people were carrying in an open area on Shabbat -- a direct violation of biblical law -- such behavior would surely not have become permitted. But once the rabbis assume that the common practice is derived from an established source, they can confirm the law on that basis, even if the process by which that position was reached isn’t clear and even if they can’t reason it out for themselves.



The incredible implication of this principle is that there is wisdom in the crowd that supersedes the wisdom of the sages. This is true even if the crowd isn’t aware of where this wisdom comes from. Abaya doesn’t tell Rava bar Rav Hanan to go and ask the people why this is their practice. He simply says to go and see what the people do and this will be the law.



The notion of pok hazi invites us to consider the dialectical nature of Jewish law, the interplay between intellectual reasoning and lived reality, and how the collective knowledge that informs our practice can sometimes be more accurate than the most brilliant of minds.



So the next time you crowd-source a recommendation to help you make a decision, or let the starred ratings inform your Amazon purchase, don’t forget to thank Abaye and his directive to pok hazi -- go and see!
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:04 pm
malki2 wrote:
You can’t make an Eruv in a RH.


Exactly. And yet they allow neighbourhood eiruvim.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:07 pm
Eiruvin 14

In-depth mathematical analysis of ים של שלמה with diagrams and equations. R' Simon Wolf.

https://drive.google.com/file/.....vesdk
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:10 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
If there are 600000 its a RR according to some rishonim.
Apparently in a very long complicated mishna brura we dont poskin like that today.
Then the question 600000 living there permanently
Just traveling on road
What if city gates open. Do traffic lites cut off the shiur.


Yes, but most towns in the time of Chazal had neither 600,000 living nor traveling there. Yet according to the Gemara one is liable for transferring from a house to the street, ie it is רשות הרבים דאורייתא.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:11 pm
Aylat wrote:
Eiruvin 14

In-depth mathematical analysis of ים של שלמה with diagrams and equations. R' Simon Wolf.

https://drive.google.com/file/.....vesdk


Speaking of mathematics, do you guys know the Vilna Gaon’s derivation of pi based on the pasuk about the Yam Shel Shlomo?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:45 pm
malki2 wrote:
Speaking of mathematics, do you guys know the Vilna Gaon’s derivation of pi based on the pasuk about the Yam Shel Shlomo?

Aside from it's not a derivation (the author previously knew the value) and that it hasn't been found in the works of the Vilna Gaon credit may actually go to Rabbi Max Munk, reference in the links below, yes. But if you know of somewhere that the Gaon said it or an appearance that predate's R Munk's, do post about it.

Do Scripture and Mathematics Agree on the Number π? Professor Isaac Elishakoff and Elliot M. Pines, PhD
On The Rabbinical Exegesis of an Enhanced Biblical Value of π Shlomo Edward G. Belaga
The Pool of Shlomo HaMelech and the Value of π Morris Engelson


Last edited by imasoftov on Sun, Aug 23 2020, 3:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 2:45 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
This is a very thorough explanation of it

https://www.torontoeruv.org/principles/


Thank you for the link.
To sharpen my question.

How does Rashi explain the fact that the Gemara apparently regards regular towns and villages to be רשות הרבים דאורייתאם?
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 3:08 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Aside from it's not a derivation (the author previously knew the value) and that it hasn't been found in the works of the Vilna Gaon credit may actually go to Rabbi Max Munk, reference in the links below, yes. But if you know of somewhere that the Gaon said it or an appearance that predate's R Munk's do post about it.

https://u.cs.biu.ac.il/~tsaban.....s.pdf
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel/bpi/bpi.html
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol22Engelson.pdf


Sorry, you lost me on that one.

And please explain how it’s known that it’s a misattribution.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 4:04 pm
malki2 wrote:
Sorry, you lost me on that one.

And please explain how it’s known that it’s a misattribution.

It's not a derivation, it's a terutz. If that isn't clear, you'll have to find someone familiar with both mathematics and Gemara and having more patience than me to explain it to you.

Before you quoted me, I corrected the claim that it is misattributed to the GRA to a falsifiable one, that it hasn't been found in his works. If anyone can find it (in the GRA's writings, not in something that asserts he said it but doesn't say where), they would earn a footnote in future papers. Or even a mention of this kri/ktiv ratio that predates R Munk.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 4:29 pm
imasoftov wrote:
It's not a derivation, it's a terutz. If that isn't clear, you'll have to find someone familiar with both mathematics and Gemara and having more patience than me to explain it to you.

Before you quoted me, I corrected the claim that it is misattributed to the GRA to a falsifiable one, that it hasn't been found in his works. If anyone can find it (in the GRA's writings, not in something that asserts he said it but doesn't say where), they would earn a footnote in future papers. Or even a mention of this kri/ktiv ratio that predates R Munk.


Oh, so Hashem put in the kri and kesiv as a terutz. That makes a lot of sense. Guess I’ll have to look for someone for more patience than you to explain it to me.

ETA: FYI it’s not called a “terutz” if you show something that always existed in a posuk to disprove a bunch of silly bible critics who thought that Hashem or the Rabbis didn’t know that if you take a string the length of a circle’s diameter and try wrapping it around the circle three times, that it won’t reach.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 5:12 pm
I don't know what is meant by a תירוץ. I would call it a רמז. It is certainly not a mathematical derivation (though something can be a derivation even if the fact was known previously).
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 23 2020, 5:13 pm
Aylat wrote:
Exactly. And yet they allow neighbourhood eiruvim.


Yes. But what neighborhood has 600,000? And, BTW I think that if the entire area is within complete mechitzot, it can also be a Reshut Hayachid.
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