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Do you say hello to male neighbors?
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amother
Blue


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:45 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
Normal interaction isn't looking for pleasure any more than normal eating is gluttony. Healthy people act in healthy ways. Sensualizing normal interactions doesn't prevent wrongdoing, but it does a whole lot of damage to society as a whole and to women in particular.


That’s why not everyone accepted that as a geder. As I said my community has no problem with normal eye level.
But if some communities have that geder I have no problem with it even if it isn’t my minhag.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:48 am
ExtraCredit wrote:
I guess that poster either didn’t learn that in school, or graduated too long ago.
I don’t remember learning that either. Interesting. So in the middle or end of a word it’s ok to change? Isn’t that prejudice?

?
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:13 am
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
That’s why not everyone accepted that as a geder. As I said my community has no problem with normal eye level.
But if some communities have that geder I have no problem with it even if it isn’t my minhag.



And I do have a problem with it because it corrupts my religion and reduces women to objects. Just because someone calls a behavior a minhag doesn't make it acceptable. What if I developed a minhag of extending shabbos into Sunday? The notion of tosefes shabbos exists and is practiced by many frum Jews. Why shouldn't expanding it be even better? Because more isn't better, especially when it encroaches on other values.
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:27 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
But as you can see from previous posters, it starts with someone wishing people would say hello in the morning and her happily ever after was being able to update neighbors on their bunny's breeding habits. We'd like to believe that everyone can just say 'good morning' and leave it at that but for many it opens up a can of worms and continues to weird places which, if one had put up a geder to begin with, would not have happened.


Good morning Lawngreen!

I just got back online and read the rest of this thread.

Yes, finding this neighborhood has been a 'happily ever after' for me. There is a sense of community here that I appreciate so much. We bought our house because we fell in love with it. We heard the neighborhood was a kind, non-materialistic, diverse, and friendly one. The fact that I am treated as a person who can be spoken to is a wonderful bonus.

I'm curious about your perspective. You'd find it 'weird' to have a neighbor initiate a conversation about some of his property (bunny) damaging some of your property (making nests under our bushes repeatedly, even though the neighbors are constantly re-caging them). What would you have preferred? Have him ignore the fact that his rabbits are eating our flowering bushes and leaving their refuse behind all over our lawn? Or perhaps you would have rathered he run to get his wife (who'd just had a baby at the time of this 'weird' conversation) and drag her outside to explain that they really are trying to train their bunnies to stay in their cage or yard? Or wait for my husband to come home (he was rarely home at the time, grad school's the pits!) so as to avoid speaking to me? As it happens, my kids love the bunnies and are fascinated by the bunny babies and I don't really care if there is some bunny poo under the bushes (free fertilizer!). I said so. He said are you sure? I said yup I am. He said, OK, thanks, but please let us know if it's getting annoying. We like to keep the bunnies outside, but if it's bothersome for you we'll relocate them indoors. That was it. The whole conversation took a minute. It was not at all relations-ual in nature. It was not sensual. Bunnies are not a flirtatious conversation topic. It was a practical conversation about managing an issue that affects his property (bunnies) and mine (yard).

I had a similar conversation with another neighbor whose property borders ours. One of our chestnut trees shades his patio. When he called a tree guy to trim the branches (so as to build his succah on his patio) the tree guy said that tree really needs to be chopped down because it leans over his property, isn't very healthy, and could potentially damage his roof if it came down in a storm. My husband happened to be home at the time. The neighbor explained the situation and asked permission to chop down our tree, and, if we agreed, our opinion re: how we would want it chopped down (left with a stump or stump burned down to nothing and sod laid over the spot.) My husband knows I love our trees. He asked to neighbor to consult with me (Gasp!). When I got home, I knocked on the neighbors door and asked him to show me the tree in question. I sadly agreed that if it could potentially damage his roof, it needed to go. I asked about the different options re: the stump. I chose to leave the stump and not burn it out because I like stumps. This was (gasp! horror!) another conversation between me and a male neighbor regarding an issue that jointly effected our properties. It lasted far longer than the bunny conversation as it included a sidebar conversation about when the work would be done and if the workers could leave us some of the trunk rounds because my kids like to set them up as chairs in the woods out back. I did not see it as inappropriate. Do you? If yes, I'd love to hear why.
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:32 am
DVOM, my poor neshama after reading your sensual post will never be the same! Bunnies and chestnut trees.. be still my beating heart!
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:35 am
Well that was an unnecessarily long post. Didn't realize my post warranted a historical account of your yard. You ask what I would do and it can be surmised quite succinctly; my DH would discuss the issue with him. Seeing as how the bunny mating was not a life or death issue which required urgent and immediate attending to, I'd have left it to DH to address when he finished up at work.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:45 am
Deleted double post
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 8:09 am
giselle wrote:
DVOM, my poor neshama after reading your sensual post will never be the same! Bunnies and chestnut trees.. be still my beating heart!


Yes, I know, it really is shocking!
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 8:39 am
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
That’s why not everyone accepted that as a geder. As I said my community has no problem with normal eye level.
But if some communities have that geder I have no problem with it even if it isn’t my minhag.


You keep going in circles and lumping up 'greeting' with 'schmoozing'.

Let's cut to the chase.

You say you are not part of these communities yet you confidently make statements about their practices and claiming that there are rabbonim that back it.

You seem to know something that we don't.

3 questions;

Which communities have this geder?
Who are the rabbanim backing it?
What is the halacha that they are basing it on?

Thanks.


Last edited by crust on Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 8:48 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Well that was an unnecessarily long post. Didn't realize my post warranted a historical account of your yard. You ask what I would do and it can be surmised quite succinctly; my DH would discuss the issue with him. Seeing as how the bunny mating was not a life or death issue which required urgent and immediate attending to, I'd have left it to DH to address when he finished up at work.


I guess you found my descriptions of the situations that caused some of these conversations with male neighbors to be superfluous to our conversation. I thought they were relevant. Goodness! Next your going to be taking a word count! Sheesh, lighten up, girl! It's a conversation! There's no length limit! When I tell a story to illustrate a point, I like to give all the details. Plus, it's fun to talk about my yard because it's really beautiful Smile.

Back to the issue at hand: True, none of these issues (bunnies, trees) were life and death emergencies. I'm surmising from your (super short!) post that life and death situations are the only circumstances in which you'd feel it is appropriate to talk to a male neighbor. That is exactly my point. I don't think it has to be a matter of life and death to speak politely and respectfully to a member of the opposite gender regarding issues that are relevant to both of us. This could include bunnies and trees, the weather, the work being done on the sewer main in our street... whatever. I don't think these conversations are strange or inappropriate. Why should they be s--xualized and considered dangerous and inappropriate?

Another point that is coming to mind (yes, this is going to be another 'unnecessarily long post'!!):

Many of the other posts mentioned the fact that women nowadays are more glamorous and dressed up than our grandparents' generation, which makes it more dangerous to have neighborly conversations with male neighbors. My grandmothers were both Young Israel Rabbi's wives in the 40's and 50's, when they were in thier 20's and 30's. Neither of them covered their hair at that point in their lives (though both did later on, at least in some fashion), wore pants, did not specifically cover elbows, knees, or collarbones, though the fashion at that point was very cinched waists and tea length full skirts, so that is what most of the pictures of them show. They dressed very glamorously, often with bright red lipstick, cap sleeves and dainty gloves. They had male friends and were friends with other couples who they went on vacations with, went out to dinner with, played cards with. This was not considered inappropriate. One of my grandfathers was an army chaplain during WWII. He was stationed at a stateside base where he was the only orthodox man for miles and led services and provided spiritual counseling there for servicemen and women of all religions for three years, mainly subsisting on fruits, veggies, and nuts. This was considered a fine and appropriate occupation for a single orthodox Jewish boy in his 20's. Times have changed in so many ways. The ways in which we can be 'good' Jewish boys and girls, men and women, have become so narrow. I wonder if my grandparents would have felt successful and 'good' by today's standards. I don't think so.
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:24 am
DVOM, there are still are communities similar to what you describe. I just don’t think you live in one of them...
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:25 am
Ok, I write 'concisely' because I'm cooking for shabbat. To be blunt- as nostalgic as people are about their grandparents, what they did was not appropriate - not the shmoozing, not the lack of hair covering, not the pants and not the short clothing. I don't see any ideal in what you're describing. I don't need to shmooze with my neighbors and have bunny chats with men because I feel socially fulfilled by interacting with other women and family members.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:46 am
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
Really? How long are you on Imamother?
Some of the threads here are so so heartbreaking.
Even if it’s not the majority it’s horrendous. Even one is too many.
The thread about the home wrecker... horrid.
And it started off with good intentions and a man who only wanted to help.


There is a lot of space between a neighborly good morning and going over to someone’s house alone to “help”. And just frankly, there are always going to be those cheaters Crying
And I really doubt there’s a greater percentage of cheaters in frum communities that say good morning and those who don’t.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:56 am
It may not be ideal, Lawngreen, but amazingly, those people in our grandparents' generation had normal conversations with the opposite gender and there was not a higher rate of immorality amongst them. You argue that today we are on a lower madreigah, but actually, it would seem that today's women are more, not less, tznius than they were.

One of my issues with men ignoring women insofar as not greeting them is that I've noticed that in some circles, it also leads to a lack of middos toward them. You may not care if the neighbor's husband doesn't hold the door open for you, but it's still a lack of mentchlichkeit.

I just want to say that I have seen some circles where the mentchlichkeit is there despite the not-looking-not-talking. I think this is an amazing accomplishment - ashrei yoladitam.

I can think of two such examples:

one: some years ago I was at a bus stop in Israel with my jet-lagged, crying baby daughter whom I took out of her stroller to try to calm her down. When the bus arrived, two chassidish-looking men, who had not seemed to glance in my direction at all, suddenly took hold of her stroller and carried it on to the bus so I could manage her more easily. A seat was vacated for me, a lollypop was produced, my ticket was carried forward for payment, all taken care of without a word. (E"Y is just amazing!!!)

two: I used to go for Shabbosim to relatives (also Chassidish) when I was in seminary. The father never talked to me, but I remember how he always made sure platters were passed down my end, and plenty of sliced challah. I felt cared for and welcome despite the lack of words. I remember that whenever I was going back after Shabbos, he made sure they sent me back with homemade goodies and snacks, I remember him instructing his wife (my mother's cousin) to pack something up for me.

But unfortunately, I don't see this alot in today's younger generation. And I do think there's a big, big place for teaching our sons to care for women, who carry the next generation (literally) and may be in need of assistance - whether you feel that way personally or not. And it does seem that there are men who don't know how to balance this act of middos vs. not looking/talking.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:03 am
Uh women on this thread seem to have the same mentality as the secular world where women cry- oh why cant men and women be friends?? Are men animals that cant control themselves around women? Is that all they think about?
Well clearly this mentality hasnt worked in the secular world. Marriages are falling apart and the reality is that men and women cant be friends because Hashem made men with a very strong yetzer hora to gaze at women and admire their beauty. This doesnt mean they are animals or they are sick. This is normal for men! Their tikun is shmiras einayim and we are supposed to help them with it by dressing modestly and staying away from men other than our husbands.
So yes saying hi seems very innocent but it is a necessary geder considering how strong the pull is for men to look inappropriately at women. And you could be in denial about this but the torah knows how men work more than we do! Men are not even supposed to look at the pinky of a woman and the sin of a man looking at a married woman is even greater. So the more the gedarim in this area the better.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:05 am
I would never talk to my neighbor, or any man, about bunnies! You know what bunnies are famous for - just the word "bunnies" would get my neighbor all hot and bothered, and then he wouldn't be able to control himself, he'd probably grab me right there in the front yard next to the juniper bush!! And it would be all my fault for talking about such a zexy subject! 😭😭😭
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ExtraCredit




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:11 am
imasoftov wrote:
?


Was kidding.
We should make a dikduk spin off...
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:13 am
Chayalle, not sure if you're aware but there are many sources (gemara, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and others) for not being behind a woman, which is what happens when one holds open the door for them, which is not a 'Jewish' form of mentchlichkeit. In fact, the Rambam states that 'Anyone who walks in back of a woman is a lowly ignoramus.' And Rashi also adds that 'It is disgraceful to walk in back of one's wife. Aaaand if it wasn't clear enough, we see in the Shulchan Aruch "If he encounters a woman in front of him in the market, he may not walk in back of her. Rather, he runs and goes to the side or in front of her."

I read through your examples and fail to see your point. Men can be tznius in their interactions with women and still have good middos. I'm not surprised by this, in fact I feel it goes hand in hand. I've also been helped by the same men who don't wish me a "good morning' or whatever, and I don't see why one would contradict the other.
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:26 am
giselle wrote:
DVOM, there are still are communities similar to what you describe. I just don’t think you live in one of them...


I actually do live in a community like this! And love it Smile
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:35 am
amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:
Uh women on this thread seem to have the same mentality as the secular world where women cry- oh why cant men and women be friends?? Are men animals that cant control themselves around women? Is that all they think about?
Well clearly this mentality hasnt worked in the secular world. Marriages are falling apart and the reality is that men and women cant be friends because Hashem made men with a very strong yetzer hora to gaze at women and admire their beauty. This doesnt mean they are animals or they are sick. This is normal for men! Their tikun is shmiras einayim and we are supposed to help them with it by dressing modestly and staying away from men other than our husbands.
So yes saying hi seems very innocent but it is a necessary geder considering how strong the pull is for men to look inappropriately at women. And you could be in denial about this but the torah knows how men work more than we do! Men are not even supposed to look at the pinky of a woman and the sin of a man looking at a married woman is even greater. So the more the gedarim in this area the better.


I don't know how you define friendship, but my definition of friendship is not someone I can say 'hi' and 'good morning' and 'what do you want to do about this tree' to. Conversations and interactions with my friends include coffee, cake, long discussions about life and kids and values, long walks in the park or on the beach. I don't need or want to be friends with my male neighbors. But I am happy to be neighbors with my male neighbors. Polite, courteous, kind, neighborly.
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