Anti-Vax Memes | Imamother

amother

Lavender

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:19 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Answer this question - how many deaths and permanent disabilities from VACCINES are you OK with?

Both Vaccines and Vaccine Preventable Diseases (VPD) can cause death and injuries.
I believe that Vaccines kill and injure far more than VPD - certainly for what was called
BENIGN childhood diseases such as measles, mumps and chickenpox.

Obviously, I am OK with choosing the option that results in FEWER deaths/injuries.
DO YOU DISAGREE?

The number of deaths and permanent disabilities from vaccines is very very low. For instance death from the MMR is less than one in a million; death from measles is one in one thousand. Vaccine injuries are also very rare, much more rare than disabilities from the diseases themselves.

Quote:

a. A child with no immunity should not be in school. There are many viruses/bacteria in school for which there are no vaccines. And no child has to be put at risk to save another.

b. There are no babies in public schools.

c. I have not read about any vaccinated children catching VPD. In the 2019 measles epidemic there were 1,282 reported cases of measles in a country of 330 million.
ZERO DEATHS. But there were about 400 deaths from vaccines reported to VAERS!

a. Are they allowed to go to the doctor without being exposed to VPDs? We're not talking about school, we're talking about the right to receive health care when necessary. Is their newborn sibling allowed to go with mom to the grocery store? Or do mom, newborn sibling, and immunocompromised child all have to quarantine until the infant is old enough to be vaccinated?

b. No babies ever at Chanuka parties? No babies ever at drop off or pick up? No public school children ever come with parents to pick up their infant siblings from the babysitter?

c. That's good, it means vaccines are working. But still not every child whose parents want them to be vaccinated, can be vaccinated. Those parents have made the choice to vaccinate and NOT expose their children to VPDs, by exposing them without their knowledge or consent you are doing the same thing you claim the government is doing to you. So you are no better than the government.

c. Apparently you don't understand how VAERS works or why it works that way. Can't help you if you refuse to listen....

Quote:

Government will never allow. Government refuses to even look at the health outcomes of children who are already 100% unvaccinated - because that will prove how dangerous vaccines really are.

You don't need the government's permission, you just need a few communities to agree and push their local governments to agree, and some scientists to follow them.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:06 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

How do you know the number of deaths and permanent disablities from vaccines is very, very low without a Vax vs UnVax study?

1 in 775 babies dies of SIDS which is when a healthy baby, with no known illness, dies
suddenly with no explanation. Most babies dying from SIDS are within hours or days of
vaccination. SIDS is listed as a reported adverse re-action on Vaccine Inserts.

I posted twice a list of chronic illnesses that exploded since the CDC quadrupled (4x)
the vaccine schedule. That is direct correllation.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:31 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Since there aren't any cases of babies dying from measles or other VPDs I don't understand this concern.

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

c. That's good, it means vaccines are working. But still not every child whose parents want them to be vaccinated, can be vaccinated.

EVERY parent is entitled to choose what risks to choose for their child. It says on vaccine inserts that reported adverse reactions include death and permanent injuries.

Many anti-vaxxers have children who have had a severe vaccine re-action or permanently vaccine injured, yet they are refused medical exemptions.

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Those parents have made the choice to vaccinate and NOT expose their children to VPDs, by exposing them without their knowledge or consent you are doing the same thing you claim the government is doing to you. So you are no better than the government.

How ridiculous to say that refusing to inject with your child with a substance that may injure or kill (per vaccine inserts) is the same as government coercing a child to be injected with a substance that may injure or kill.

There are ZERO babies dying from VPDs, even with a tiny percentage of children being unvaccinated, so you have no justification to force anyone to be vaccinated, risking death and injury (per the vaccine inserts).

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Apparently you don't understand how VAERS works or why it works that way. Can't help you if you refuse to listen....

I understand exactly how VAERS works. It tracks correlation. If we want absolute proof, we need a Vax vs UnVax Study which the government refuses to do.

gold21

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:33 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

From sleeping around.
Imagine a law all men need to use BC because some women don't want to become pregnant. It's my right to sleep with whomever I want without worrying if my protection is sufficient. I need to be able to rely on everyone else and if I have an unwanted pregnancy, you know whose fault it is? Those men who didn't use BC.
I know it's not a comparison that works 100% but the ridiculousness of the above example should give you a glimpse of how anti-vaxxers view the situation of being forced to vaccinate themselves in order to protect you who uses protection.

The only thing I'm getting a glimpse of is how ridiculous your example is. I mean ... Really? How would it feel if gorillas were roaming the earth and all humans had to hide in their homes in fear of becoming gorilla food? That's how vaxxers feel about anti vaxxers. Or something. Lol.

southernbubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:05 pm

gold21 wrote:

I don't think that it's on most people's radar until there actually is an outbreak.
I also feel that the anti-vaxers antagonized the rest of the community by accusing them of being sheeple and quoting everything that anti-vax websites and books have to say rather than having a connection to a vaccine injured child and giving that as the reason for their reluctance. During the measles outbreak, that rally at the Atrium didn't exactly win support from those who vaccinate. It seemed more cult than science.
Then along came some writers who connected the current pandemic with the failure of the public to stand up for anti-vaxers in Albany and felt that this failure incurred Divine wrath so severe that the entire world was punished. Sorry, but that was one collosal turn off to the anti-vaxers cause.
Maybe they can find spokespeople who don't use inflammatory rhetoric to make enemies.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:11 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

But you have not controlled for anything.

Direct correlation does not equal direct causation, and that is precisely what you fail to understand.

Example: Child takes elderberry for flu. Child dies the next day. Did elderberry kill the child? No, not necessarily. Probably not. However, there is "direct correlation," as you call it, so according to your logic the child died due to the elderberry. Laugh

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" - please, it doesn't work like that...

gold21

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:18 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Exactly.
💯💯💯💯 accurate

amother

Lavender

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:19 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Since there aren't any cases of babies dying from measles or other VPDs I don't understand this concern.

Actually at least one baby did die of measles during the outbreak, in Israel. Probably there were more in other places. But at any rate if kids aren't dying from VPDs, thanks to vaccines, isn't that proof that vaccines work?

Quote:

Well, many parents were stripped of that choice when other parents chose to expose their children to measles, without their consent. So apparently you are only entitled to choose what risks you want for your children if your children are old enough and healthy enough to be vaccinated, or if you are an anti-vaxxer with children of any age. The rest of the population has no right to choose what they want for their children, because anti-vaxxers make the choice for them.

Quote:

You can choose whatever you want for YOUR CHILD, but the moment you act irresponsibly and expose SOMEONE ELSE's child to a VPD, when they want their child to receive the vaccination (but the child either cannot or is not yet old enough), then you are stripping that parent of their right to choose which risks their children should take.

And it doesn't matter if the child dies or is "just" disabled or "just" spends 4 months in the hospital - you STRIPPED that parent of their choice and HARMED their child. Will you pay their hospital bill? The PT and OT bills and follow-up doctor bills that they now are facing because of the VPD you exposed them to without their consent? You trampled their rights and harmed their health and freedom in a very serious way.

Quote:

I understand exactly how VAERS works. It tracks correlation. If we want absolute proof, we need a Vax vs UnVax Study which the government refuses to do.

No, apparently you do NOT understand how VAERS works. It allows everyone to post whatever the heck they want, if they smother their baby because they were drunk and co-sleeping they can still count that as a vaccine-related death and it appears on VAERS. Basically the same thing you complain of with how the CDC counts COVID deaths, is how anti-vaxxers count vaccine deaths. If the mother forgets her baby in a car for an hour and comes back to find the baby dead she can still report it on VAERS as a vaccine-related injury. Whether the scientists take that as a vaccine-related injury remains to be seen but the public just sees the added numbers and starts fear-mongering.
VAERS is there as a catch-all so that nothing, nothing, gets missed. The flip side is that you have a lot of unrelated garbage reported, that is seen by conspiracy theorists as "proof" of the dangers of vaccines. Intelligent people know how to sort the trash from the truth, but most VAERS viewers do not know how to do that and just gobble up conspiracy theories and false conclusions.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 9:14 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" - please, it doesn't work like that...

Correlation does not PROVE causation - but it does call for a controlled study.

If one child died after taking elderberry it probably did not die from elderberry.
But if THOUSANDS of children die after taking elderberry, then they probably DID die
from elderberry.

For decades THOUSANDS of people have said that smoking causes cancer and other disease which the Tobacco Industry denied.

The Tobacco Industry hired (bribed) scientists to chant:

"Correlation does not prove Causation"

Then there were Smoker vs Non-Smoker studies - and guess what they PROVED????

That Smoking DOES cause cancer. While correlation does not PROVE causation, when THOUSANDS of people report adverse reactions, it is likely that there IS causation.

Lavender, Why doesn't the government (CDC) do a Retrospective Vax vs UnVax Study to PROVE if vaccines cause autism and many other diseases????

amother

Lavender

Mon, Aug 17 2020, 12:53 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Do you understand, properly understand, how that controlled study would have to be conducted in order to give you the results you're looking for? It's not ethical.

Yes - possibly they died from elderberry. But what if some had taken elderberry together with echinecea, some took elderberry instead of antibiotics after being diagnosed 4 weeks prior with strep, and others took elderberry when they had a 103 fever and had not seen a doctor yet? Would you STILL say that the elderberry killed them, or would you say that maybe the elderberry needs to be examined, but on the face of things, it would seem that what we really need to examine is not elderberry but what happens when elderberry and echinecea are taken together, and why the parents of one child did not treat the diagnosed strep infection and the parents of the other child did not take their child in to the ER if the child had a 103 fever for 2 days and it wasn't going down?

The smoker vs non-smoker studies are easy to conduct and perfectly ethical. Tobacco provides zero benefit (other than making the user feel good), and it is well-known that the companies selling it are unethical. There's another major difference that you're overlooking - tobacco companies get people addicted and dependent on their products, on a daily basis.

In response to your size 18 question, I will say this once, and only once:

Retrospective studies are unreliable. They rely on the parents' memory, which is often biased; they cannot control exposure or assessment; they often suffer from selection bias; there are many important aspects which cannot be accurately measured when you do a retrospective study. You will also have misclassification issues.

It is very hard to get around the selection bias, recall bias, and misclassification, especially on the scale you're referring to. And even if they do manage, retrospective studies are not so accurate as to justify the time and cost involved

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 17 2020, 2:30 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

A retrospective study: What is the rate of autism in unvaxxed children? SIDS? Diabetes?
Epilepsy? Allergies? Asthma?

What memory is needed? Either the child has a diagnosis or doesn't.

What memory is needed? A parent knows if their child is 100% unvaccinated and it is in their medical records. If a child is 100% vaccinated it is in their medical records.

When a new medication is tested, they do not control for other factors such as
diet. So there is no need to control any other factor except for whether the child
was vaccinated or not.

Imas, what do you think?

If a vax vs unvax study shows that vaccinated children have an autism rate of 1:50
and UNvaccinated children have an autism rate of 1:1,000

Would you agree that PROVES that vaccines cause Autism?

And that is why the government CDC will never do a vax vs unvax study. They make up all these silly excuses which Lavender is repeating, but you know it really doesn't make sense.

People have been screaming for a vax vs unvax study. A bill was introduced in Congress to force CDC to do a vax vs unvax study.

And that is why the government is getting rid of all exemptions - to destroy the evidence, the control group - unvaccinated children. Because if there are no unvaccinated children, there can never be a vax vs unvax study

Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, Aug 17 2020, 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 17 2020, 2:35 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Oh, I forgot all the babies in developed countries who died of pertussis because their parents refused to vaccinate them. It's much more common than dying of measles....

My bad.
https://bringmethenews.com/min.....nfirm
https://www.latimes.com/local/......html
https://abcnews.go.com/Lifesty.....56756
https://time.com/4411920/whoop.....dies/

And diphtheria, too.
https://www.euractiv.com/secti.....eece/
https://www.thestar.com.my/new.....-her/
https://www.thelocal.es/201506.....elona

I'm sure, with your talent for research, you can find many more such stories.

And how many HEALTHY babies die within hours or days of being vaccinated, with no other explanation?

About a 1,000 per year in USA.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Aug 17 2020, 2:46 am

#BestBubby wrote:

A retrospective study: What is the rate of autism in unvaxxed children? SIDS? Diabetes?
Epilepsy? Allergies? Asthma?

What memory is needed? Either the child has a diagnosis or doesn't.

What memory is needed? A parent knows if their child is 100% unvaccinated and it is in their medical records. If a child is 100% vaccinated it is in their medical records.

When a new medication is tested, they do not control for other factors such as
diet. So there is no need to control any other factor except for whether the child
was vaccinated or not.

Imas, what do you think?

If a vax vs unvax study shows that vaccinated children have an autism rate of 1:50
and UNvaccinated children have an autism rate of 1:1,000

Would you agree that PROVES that vaccines cause Autism?

And that is why the government CDC will never do a vax vs unvax study. They make up all these silly reasons which Lavender is repeating, but you know it really doesn't make sense.

People have been screaming for a vax vs unvax study. A bill was introduced in Congress to force CDC to do a vax vs unvax study.

And that is why the government is getting rid of all exemptions - to destroy the evidence, the control group - unvaccinated children. Because if there are no unvaccinated children, there can never be a vax vs unvax study

You. Don't. Get. It.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to argue with you.

There are so many things that need to be controlled for. For example, a less-educated parent may not get her child diagnosed with autism. Diabetes may be caused by other factors. Were the children breastfed or formula feed? Did they have access to healthcare? Did mom drink alcohol or take other medications during pregnancy? How often does the child visit the doctor, if at all? Does the family eat a gluten-free paleo diet, or lots of junk food? Do the parents smoke? Do they live in a polluted area? Is the diagnosis accurate? When was it given, under which circumstances, and when did symptoms appear, and was there anything that might be more of a cause of those symptoms than the vaccine?

The fact that you see only two things here - vaccination status and diagnosis - sort of explains why you're not a scientist yourself, and why you continuously fail to understand what this study entails and why it hasn't yet been done to your taste.

When a new medication is tested, IT IS NOT A RETROSPECTIVE STUDY. It is a controlled trial, conducted in real time, with placebos and under controlled conditions, and there are specific criteria for who can join the study and who cannot, and if one of those criteria disappears the person is dropped from the study. And you are not looking for triggers for symptoms or diagnoses - which you need to control for factors such as diet, exercise, etc. - you are looking to see how the medication affects the status quo - AFTER you have already taken the snapshot you need of the status quo. You are looking FORWARDS not backwards like you do with a retrospective study.

What doesn't make sense AT ALL is why uneducated people who cannot understand, for the life of them, how science works, think themselves smarter and more educated and more informed than expert doctors and scientists who spend YEARS learning how to do proper research and examining the issues at hand in depth. It is mind-boggling.

This is a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I think you've earned your place in that club.