Do you find raising children is religiously inspiring?

amother

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:38 pm

DH and I are BH expecting our first baby (after a few years of marriage). He’s a “serious” RW MO guy- davens with a minyan 3x a day, nightly chavrusa, etc. and a good partner. He voices frustrations to me occasionally that he finds much of frumkeit to be blah and uninspiring. That Gemara feels irrelevant and very rarely enjoyable, hard to get kavana at shul, that it’s hard to believe this is his goal in life to put so much energy in but for it to feel so unpleasant in this world. Plus some lack of confidence in emunah..

It admittedly makes me cry and each time he brings up his doubts (every 3-6 months maybe) I really try to keep it together, but it’s hard. I’ve suggested he learn something else besides Gemara, like halacha and machshava, and bought him a really nice set of a Shulchan Aruch that he said he’d like after I suggested it. (He has a complex that learning anything but Gemara for a guy is a cop-out and weak). I beg him to try to find a mentor from one of his roshei yeshiva 10 years ago or the old shul Rav etc., but it never happens.

He told me yesterday that he has trouble imagining that it would be religiously meaningful to raise children if a main goal in yiddishkeit is to raise children l’torah, mitzvos, u’maasim tovim, and he often doesn’t find the Torah path to feel worthwhile. Like what’s all the energy of raising frum children worth if it’s all not that worthwhile, (chas v Shalom).

He usually isn’t like this and we have otherwise a great marriage, BH- so I don’t think therapy would be a good fit at all. So I’m really just looking for your experiences on if you’ve found raising your children to be religiously enriching and/or suggestions on how to best respond to these conversations.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:41 pm

He might benefit from learning some Chabad chassidus or Tanya

Also, no, raising kids is drudgery all around (and a lot of not fun things involved in getting a picture perfect scene - so if you want the kids gathered around the shabbos table, you have to cook, clean, get them dressed, deal with tantrums and spilled drinks, etc)

Like don't think that raising kids will be the answer. It might very well add on to his resentment. Deal with that first before the obligation of children

Just One

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:45 pm

For me learning about Hashem, our role in the world and my spiritual makeup through Tanya was life changing
I also benefited from more mussar based teachings of Rav Dessler
Many people I know were inspired by philosophical teachings like Rav Sh"R Hirsch.
Basically if "pshat" of Torah leaves him uninspired it's time for some deeper searching

Last edited by Just One on Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Brunette

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:46 pm

It's not depressing or anything, and it is overall very rewarding in lots of ways, but no, it's not inspirational and a lot of time it's not enjoyable (though not necessarily miserable).

If anyone is looking for anything at life to demonstrate its intrinsic value by feeling inspiring or meaningful more than maybe occasionally, they will be disappointed. Whether that's raising children or one's career or relationships. That doesn't mean these things are miserable, but the expectation that one is constantly "feeling the kedushah" is not realistic.

So, I'm sure your dh has something that motivates him about parenting and raising a family and living life. It doesn't have to be explicitly Torah based (although anything good probably is somewhere, but you don't have to rub that in his face).

amother

Beige

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 1:51 pm

I definitely get how he feels. I think, at least for me, it seems like people are just going with the flow. Everyone does what they do because their parents did it and so on. So there’s no depth. It’s just “this is mesorah.” It’s a bit robotic. My husband and I had to find out what works for us. We had to find out how to connect to Judaism. We did a lot of learning, we mentored (both in the frum community and non-Jews), we asked questions. We found that mentoring other people helped us tremendously in our religious life.

I would say raising children is just inspiring, in general. We have one child who chooses not to be frum, but even he admits that the religious foundation we raised him on helped him to be the person he is today.

zaq

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 2:35 pm

Nope nope nope. Bringing up children is years and years of noisy, messy, frustrating, exhausting, teeth-grinding, crazy-making HARD WORK interspersed with moments of rollicking laughter, deep embarrassment, eye-misting sentiment, soul-flooding nachas, rip-snorting amusement, and sheer indescribable joy. People who are already of a spiritual bent will find religious inspiration in all of this; those who are more earthbound will probably not.

One should have children because one wants them, period. You never know in advance how your children will turn out, and at the end of the day, they are not there to be your nachas machines or your religious inspiration or even your comfort in your old age. You can certainly pray and work for them to be all three, but if you 're planning to have children because you romantically envision the frum equivalent of a Norman Rockwell Thanksgiving, you're asking to be disappointed.

It's not religiously meaningful to bring children up lemaasim tovim? If that isn't, then I'd like to know what is? Seems to me if you don't accomplish at least that, there's no point to having them, be you Jew or gentile.

Last edited by zaq on Thu, Aug 20 2020, 4:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

Just One

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 3:24 pm

zaq wrote:

Nope nope nope. Bringing up children is years and years of noisy, messy, frustrating, exhausting, teeth-grinding, crazy-making HARD WORK interspersed with moments of rollicking laughter, deep embarrassment, eye-misting sentiment, soul-flooding nachas, rip-snorting amusement, and sheer indescribable joy. People who are already of a spiritual bent will find religious inspiration in all of this; those who are more earthbound will probably not.

One should have children because one wants them, period. You never know in advance how your children will turn out, and at the end of the day, they are not there to be your nachas machines or your religious inspiration or even your comfort in your old age. You can certainly pray and work for them to be all three, but if you have children with a romantic vision of the frum equivalent of a Norman Rockwell Thanksgiving, you're asking to be disappointed.

It's not religiously meaningful to bring children up lemaasim tovim? If that isn't, then I'd like to know what is? Seems to me if you don't accomplish at least that, there's no point to having them, be you Jew or gentile.

That first paragraph's a keeper!

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 3:37 pm

This is a really interesting thread. I don’t have kids yet, also expecting my first, but I’d imagine that if you plan on teaching your kids directly about loving Hashem and torah, then you will find yourself inspired by their emuna. I haven’t tried this yet but I want to instill a love for torah in my kids. I imagine it will involve me doing a lot of learning and hopefully also getting closer to Hashem in the process.

I get inspired now when I see young kids who just say answer that Hashem made them beautiful or gam zu letova, ill share cuz it’s a mitzva....

zaq

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 4:57 pm

OP, please clarify something, because rereading your OP I'm confused. What I think I'm hearing is:

1. Your dh is disillusioned with frumkeit.
2. He is questioning whether being frum is worthwhile.
3. He's questioning whether bringing up children to be frum is worthwhile.

Here's where I lose the thread of your thoughts: Do we have a
4. Your dh questions whether it's worthwhile to have children.

Does dh believe that the reason to have children is solely to bring them up frum, and that if one doesn't think being frum is worthwhile, then having children is also not worthwhile? Or is dh fine with having children but thinking that it's not worth the investment of bringing them up frum because he sees no value to being frum?

IOW, is he rethinking having children at all (a bit late for that ) , rethinking bringing them up frum, or rethinking being frum himself?

And where does the 'religious inspiration' come into the picture? Is he the one, or are you the one, imagining that having children will somehow magically invest your dh with a renewed fervor for yiddishkeit?

Occasionally, having a child makes a person view the world in a different way and gives him an appreciation for certain values or traditions that may not have meant much to him in his heedless youth. But a. this seldom happens overnight. and b. your dh apparently DID have an appreciation in his heedless youth but has become disenchanted now. Either way, if you or your dh expect that the moment he looks at that little wrinkly bundle of joy he will 'see G-d'--well, it could happen, but don't bank on it.

I think the issue of children is just a confounding factor and the real issue is your dh loss of faith, not whether or not parenthood is religiously inspiring. It's that loss of faith that needs to be addressed.

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 5:19 pm

It's yes and no. Also, I don't think anything anyone here says will be entirely relevant to your husband because experiences are different for men and women. Your husband isn't going to have to deal with not being able to go to shul so much the way women have to step back a bit from shul participation while raising young kids (and yes, I harbor some resentment about that).

But back to my answer, which is both yes and no: I honestly find nothing spiritually fulfilling in the day to day drudgery, of which there is a lot, especially in the baby/toddler years. Nothing. It's not religiously fulfilling at all, and I hate hearing about how it's my tafkid and I should be ok with not being able to daven or learn so much or whatever because this is my spiritual work right now. Nope, doesn't cut it for me. That said, there is nothing like bringing up children in the ways of our people. To sing shema with them at night. To help them through their brachos. To see their curiosity and wonder as they soak up everything about this world Hashem made. When they share what they've learned in school, when you see them looking at a package for the hechsher... Those moments are definitely religiously fulfilling.

Smiles613

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 10:13 pm

I find a lot of really good guys feel like "second class citizens" for not loving Gemara

I try to show my husband how his perspective helps me in my daily life to build his confidence in thinking for himself.

For example:
"Id like to raise our kids with ____ value can you research it for me"
It helps him find interesting Torah topics but he's doing it to help me

avrahamama

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 10:22 pm

zaq wrote:

This WHOLE ENTIRE post was so spot on for me. Thank you. You have a way with words in general. But this one hit me at a very teeth-grinding moment.

Bless you.

I spent tonight muttering to H "I know this means you believe me... But I don't believe in me"

happy chick

Thu, Aug 20 2020, 10:22 pm

It's not all about gemara. No, not every moment of raising children will feel rewarding, many moments will feel the opposite.
But the times when you do feel it, is worth every moment. Such as family time on yt, dh taking your child under his Tallis for borchas kohanim, on his shoulder on simchas Torah or singing haneros halalu on Chanukah. Hearing DC come home from school for shabbos/yt with a dvar Torah.
At the end of the day , we each have out ups and downs and each child is different, but it is all worth it in the long run.
And this is coming from someone who has had her fair share in difficult children and sometimes felt like quitting.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Aug 21 2020, 1:00 am

My DH is completely disillusioned with frumkeit but he wants our children to be decent human beings. He loves family time - shabbos, day trips, BBQs, etc.
He will say shema with them if he's doing bedtime because I do it and that's their routine, but it doesn't inspire him.
He does love holiday traditions like chanukah and the seder and he's made sure the kids love that too.
He's super proud when they do well in school and act like a mentsch.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Aug 21 2020, 1:07 am

Having and raising children, in my experience, brings forth deeper emotions (both positive and negative) that I never experienced before.
There are moments that my heart is so full that I feel it will burst from joy and pride. There is also more worry and concern than I ever felt for other people in my life. There is sometimes a love so intense that it hurts.
But the happy moments, the ones that make the sleepless nights and endless work worthwhile... I would say that many of those are directly related to my own feelings about Judaism. When a child gets a Siddur or displays beautiful midos, when the family is enjoying a shabbos meal or pesach Seder, when your child is called to the Torah for the first time or makes a siyum, there is potential for deep joy and pleasure.
If a parent finds these milestones to be meaningless, he will probably not feel the joy in the same way.
(That’s not to take away from the deep pleasure of bringing a life into the world and caring for a child that is a part of you. That may be entirely independent of religious feeling. )
But IMO, the more your religion means to you, the more fulfillment you will likely find in their big and small accomplishments.