Judaism and a financial plan

Motek

Thu, Feb 14 2008, 6:14 pm

The Mechilta (a Medrash) says on Shemos 16:4-5, "And let the people go out and gather each day's portion [of manna] on its day. R' Elazar Ha'Modai said, 'This was stated so that a person shouldn't gather today for tomorrow's needs, unlike erev Shabbos ... ' "And it happened on the sixth day [Friday] and they prepared ..." From here we learn that a person should prepare for Shabbos on erev Shabbos.

Based on this, R' Elazar Ha'Modai said, 'Anyone who has enough food for today and asks, "What will I eat tomorrow," is lacking faith!

the point here is not that this is Medrash and not a halacha in Shulchan Aruch

the issue being raised here is one of bitachon and what R' Elazar Ha'Modai would say about having a savings and retirement plan

queen

Thu, Feb 14 2008, 6:20 pm

it's the famous Reb Elya Dessler on hishtadlus vs. bitochon. (as well as many others who have commented on this topic)

My response though to you Motek is we are not on their level, (well maybe I should just speak for myself!) and therefore have to do our hishtadlus. It's a pendulum----- hishtadlus and bitochon are very closely related and correlate to one another. The more bitochon you have the less hishtadlus you need and vis versa.

NotInNJMommy

Thu, Feb 14 2008, 7:08 pm

This is very tricky. Did you have an opinion Motek, or just wanted intellectual discussion?

Even for well off people who are extremely blessed with parnossah and children BH, things like tuition still have to be planned investments. How can one not save? or making simchas? or shidduchim (sending boys to meet girls, which can require travel...or bring girls to meet boys, whatever, we have an international dating scene)

Where does making a keli and lacking bitachon meet? is it really contradictory. This is very complicated. How can one be responsible if they don't save and plan? How can one be financially irresponsible by not planning and using the resources to their best abilities to not have to ask for handouts or go into debt?

And true, how do we reconcile this idea of R' Elazar Ha'Modai's with being responsible and saving to our best abilities. Schools humiliate people who can't afford the tuition. You have to beg and cry almost to be taken seriously, kids have been sent home. and then true, the teachers have to get paid.

Very tricky and very sticky...

rosehill

Fri, Feb 15 2008, 5:19 am

It's a philosophical question that exists in all areas of life, balancing hishtadlus with bitachon. It exists in Shidduchim as well. People go to great pains (no pun intended) to ensure their children find shidduchim in excellent physical and mental health. Yet surely, Hashem, who is Rofeh Kol Basar, can make a sick person healthy, or R"L a healthy person can be diagnosed the day after the wedding.

We just do our best, and hope and pray that Hashem takes us the rest of the way.

zigi

Fri, Feb 15 2008, 8:25 am

I guess it means you have to be aware that everything is in hashems hands, hashem can bring some one or visa versa, don't make your self crazy about the future,ie pesach ahh!! but enjoy what hashem has given you for that day. also don't hoard money in stead of doing a mitzvah, tzedaka is the best investment in the future, you can save money then things come up and its not there any more. maybe instead of saving an extra $ put it in a gemach,

Atali

Fri, Feb 15 2008, 8:28 am

EstiS wrote:

Do you think maybe this could be relating to not being miserly and saving beyond what you really need to save.....
versus a sensible plan for the future?

I'm inclined to agree with EstiS.

I think that part of it may be that the financial realities in our times are different from what it used to be. It used to be typical for people to work and get paid on the same day, but now people usually get paychecks twice a month or less.

Also, we have a lot of monthly bills that people didn't used to have, electric, gas, phone, insurance, etc.; or even yearly bills that people need to save for all year, such as tuition, property taxes (for those without escrowed mortgages), etc.

And, of course, most people don't inherit their houses, but rather need to save for a down payment.

You get the idea.

Motek

Sat, Feb 16 2008, 7:10 pm

NJMommy wrote:

Did you have an opinion Motek, or just wanted intellectual discussion?

Just came across that quote and thought it was worth posting and discussing.

In some threads, in some posts, the message that comes across is that you have to be responsible and plan for your future. I think this Medrash is saying that those who urge people to be responsible are simultaneously displaying their lack of faith and urging others not to have faith. Yes, as queen mentioned there's hishtadlus vs. bitachon and it's not a simple, black and white answer, one size fits all. At the same time though, shouldn't we be extolling those who have faith (if it's faith they have) rather than extolling those who have their retirement plans worked out?

Tefila

Sat, Feb 16 2008, 7:41 pm

Imho call me thrifty or generous or plain dumb 8) But I am not into rsps and savings etc.

U see I have an Aunt who invested lots in stocks but when disaster with the twin towers her stocks went kaput she was left with nilch. There is no guarantee what will happen with ones savings in the future however if one has the money rather invest as much as one can into Tzedakah and then atleast it will always be a win win situation one can't ever lose their hard earned money by doing this mtzvah .

mimivan

Sat, Feb 16 2008, 7:45 pm

Motek wrote:

Maybe this has to do with worrying rather than doing...
We are supposed to make a keli, right?
If someone does everything in his power (without worrying) to make a keli so he will have something for his retirement, and somehow it gets wiped out, and then gets nervous..perhaps that is the nisayon for his bitachon...

but I don't think the message is someone should not make a keli...That's like saying because mon once fell from heaven, we shouldn't get jobs.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Feb 16 2008, 7:56 pm

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

tefila thrify is someone who would save their money

Uh don't you mean miserly Twisted Evil

If by miserly you mean saving a little each week to be able to pay off the electricity bill then sure.
however my definition of miserly is something different.
thrify is someone who is cheap, looks for bargains.
It could be warranted, It could be not.
Depends what it is they plan on doing with their savings. Some people are thrifty in order to be able to give more tzedoka.
Or a person could be thrifty because they don't have enough money
Miserly on the other hand is someone that has trouble parting with money even when he has what to part with (ie spare)

Quote:

Also investing in stocks is not saving, its investing

Right but who cares the outcome could still be the same.

the risk in stocks is far greater then the risk of keeping your money in the bank.

Last edited by Lechatchila Ariber on Sat, Feb 16 2008, 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Feb 16 2008, 8:15 pm

right. Its like sitting on your tuchus, twiddling your thumbs all day and not doing anything to bring finances in because you are relying on hashem to provide.

as an aside, I'm sure you all know that joke.
prospective son in law meets prospective father in law...

pfil - "how do you plan on earning a living"
psil - "G-d will provide"
pfil - "where will you live"
psil - "G-d will provide"
pfil - "how will you put food on the table"
psil - "G-d will provide"

end of interview prospective mother in law to father in law :
"how did it go"
pfil- "great! he already thinks I'm G-d" Twisted Evil

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Feb 17 2008, 3:54 pm

Quote:

That doesn't contradict making a keli either. You have for today, go to sleep, get up the next morning, make your keli for that day, have enough for that day etc.

yes but in today's day and age if all you do is make sure you have enough for that day and don't think about tomorow then you'll be in deep trouble at the end of the month when you have to pay your electricity, gas and other bills.

besides even if you wanted to in today's day and age it wouldn't work.
Pay day would come, you'd get your pay and that pay has to last you till the next one.
so Perhaps a "day" should mean from pay to pay so a day isn't really a day Wink

(uh oh, here we go again on that topic LOL

) yet even making sure you just have enough for month to month, or fortnight to fortnight won't help you when you have to pay your rates at the end of the year, or any other yearly bills, and it won't help you when you need to make chasanas and other simchas.

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Feb 19 2008, 5:41 pm

I was discussing this with my chavrusa. It kind of tied in with a sicha we were learning discussing the concept that Hashem provides us with our needs but if you chase after more then you need then it will affect what you do need and you may end up without even that

The conclusion of the sicha is that if in general you are broad minded (broad minded meaning not getting bogged down by your little worries but focusing on the greater picture and the good that you have) and chase after the right things in life and accept that Hashem provides your needs etc, then hashem can make allowances for those times when you've had it and you feel you need more. like begging for that cleaning lady that you sort of can't afford but you really need to get especially before pesach.

so I brought up this topic about putting away for the future and she said the underlying message with both concepts is to recognize that it all comes from Hashem and he is the provider.
The manna being given each day to the yidden and them not being able to collect for the next day was given as a test and a lesson to teach the yidden and remind them that everything they get is from Hashem and it is Hashem that provides us with our needs.

This does not mean to say not to make a keli at all for the future but you must have a balance.
She brought up a book as an example, I can't remember what she said its called, I think something "alls well" or something like that, but in it there was a story about a man whose parents had to struggle to pay off their children's weddings and he vowed that would not happen to him. So he and his wife scrimped and saved and denied themselves things in order to save up for the future. In the end something happened to cause him to lose all his saved money. That said the book also provided another story with the opposite extreme.

Basically the idea is to have a balance, make your keli for today, yes and also consider the future but not to go over board to the sense that you forget who is the ultimate provider. Always bear in mind that ultimately it all comes from hashem.