S/O gifted - failure to launch

amother

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 12:37 am

My brother is gifted (140 IQ) and has a lot of social emotional issues (diagnosed with Asperger's). He has had so many interventions over the years and when he wants to integrate socially he has the ability to do so. He has had academic success in the past

He is in his low 20's and has decided he doesn't want to bother with the rest of the world anymore.

He spends his days reading or researching his topics of interest online, but refuses to go to college, get a job, or even keep up a dailly chavrusa. We are in Israel but the army gave him a patur because of his deep depression. He is "allergic" to anything that requires any commitment whatsoever.

At one point my parents tried to force him to go to college (took away his library card and computer access), it completely backfired, he slept in shuls for 3 nights until my parents begged him to come back.

Same thing happened when they tried to force therapy

He has been severely bullied as a child, including from a sibling who I can't blame because as a child he was really difficult to be around - and he gave as much as he got, and was usually the one to intitate the fights , but in his experience it was bullying. He also experienced all the interventions as trying to "change" or "fix" him....

My parents have given up. How can I help him? He is a sweet soul, super kind to kids and to family members he likes, extremely smart, and when he tries is an interesting person to talk to. He has the skills to socialize but says it's against his nature, he has no use for people and will not try to function.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 1:56 am

Don't punish or try to force him to do anything. Some people, especially ones with aspergers or asd, need more acceptance and support than usual. He will not see criticism or forcing him to do anything as love or trying to help, he will see this as controlling and hate, especially if he was bullied.
Try to accept him and give him time, of he doesn't want to do anything, leave him and at some point he will want to do things himself, even if it takes a few years. Showing you like him the way he is is the key for him to start accepting some suggestions.

amother

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 2:04 am

It's been over a year where my parents have given up - they just leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants. They even built an addition so that he could have his own space (the siblings he was sharing a room with don't want to sleep with him because he has bad hygiene and my mom stopped reminding him to shower ect. because he viewed it as critisism)
It feels like the more they let him do what ever he wants/ shower him with love and acceptance the deeper he get into this rut.
I wonder if he ever will be motivated to do anything, and I wonder how he will manage when my parents can't care of him, and if as the oldest I will be saddled with a man child...

Does anyone have experience with this sort of issue being resolved?

amother

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 2:07 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Sorry, this really is hard. Unfortunately, you can't do too much. This situation requires a professional. Sometimes well-meaning family members can do things that backfire.

He is not willing to go to therapy. My parents are working with someone who believes he needs to be treated for his depression, and then they can work on a plan, but he refuses to see anyone.

The approach my parents are taking is leave him alone and let him do whatever he want, while loving him and not trying to change him. It's been over a year like this and seems to be getting worse.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 2:14 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He is over 20, they can't force him to go to therapy and someone that believes he has depression without talking to him doesn't seem reliable. He has aspergers, the last thing he wants is to sit down and talk to a stranger. Knowing that your parents are speaking to people about it,even a therapist, is seen as a betrayal of some sorts.

amother

Mint

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 4:03 am

Are your parents working with a licensed mental health professional? You could ask if they would be comfortable with you coming in for a session so you can also voice your concerns to the therapist and help be a part of the team.

I don't think there's anything you can do beyond that. My instinct is to say they're enabling him so of course he won't change--there's absolutely no incentive for him to behave any differently, and that if a kid is over 18 and they don't live by the house rules (for my parents that was you must have a job, be in school, or be volunteering, and you must do xyz to help out around the house) you don't get to live in the house anymore. But I recognize that the ASD diagnosis complicates things. I agree with the person above - this is probably above imamother's pay grade.

amother

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 4:26 am

They are working with a licensed psychologist who supposedly specializes in ASD, although I think it's more as support for my parents then anything else - she says you can't force anything on him, he needs to be interested in treatment. In the past when they tried the "tough love" approach it backfired - he is completely willing to be homeless, and just wandered about and slept in shuls.

My mom especially needs it - before the therapy she was heartbroken by the situation, if he see's them getting support as a betrayal, I believe that is another symptom of his disorder and I don't think they should dance around him.

The depression diagnosis came from the army psychatrist who evaluated him, and the therapist is going with the diagnosis since he won't meet her.

He is really good with my kids and seems really happy playing with them, and he is close to my mom (he'll talk to her about how he feels worthless, waste of space...) but when it comes to doing anything he shuts down.

I try to just be positive when I am there, but I really feel like this isn't working and was posting here to see if anyone has had success in dealing with such a situation, and to get references/ professionals...

amother

Mint

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 4:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

With all due respect, three days is not trying the tough love approach. The tough love approach means you NEVER cross the boundary that you set. If your kid wants to be homeless rather than follow the rules, you let them be homeless until they follow the rules. Someone in my dad's family literally pressed charges on his own kid. Once your child is an adult, you can't control their behavior anymore, and you don't have a lot of parenting tools left at your disposal. You can only control whether or not what you're doing is supporting them, and enabling a child's destructive behavior is not supportive.

BUT none of that applies when mental health comes into play IMO. The psychologist should be running the show, and everyone should be on the same page. I really recommend that you ask your parents to come along to one of their sessions or meet with her privately so that you can all be helping together. She is absolutely right that forcing therapy on someone doesn't work, and it sounds like she's doing a good job. It sounds like there are a lot of family dynamics going on that may take some time to adjust. You can also find someone to speak with individually, I think that would be really helpful.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 5:26 am

As someone who has also ASD, been in depression, anxiety, eating disorder etc...

Having high functioning ASD is a really big job. I'm kinda in the same boat yet I'm married but I failed in academics due to ASD it was not my IQ what was wrong (it is high but I have a huge gap between verbal and nonverbal), it was that I couldn't apply my thinking. Like I can easily read an academic review but my essay on that will be focusing on all the details which lead to a low grade and in the first years it wasn't a problem.
Before I did social studies where I was really good in my internships with children, people with intellectual disabilities, and people with Alzheimers but I was not functioning in a team or in a group.
I'm unemployed, have huge loans and need to wait for social services to help to find me a job.

I think, your brother feels a big failure everyone is taking the next step but you are stuck. And that is really hard.
This has also giving me a depression and now I'm having
this therapy which is way more about the certain patterns you have in your emotions and life. I always blame everything on my ASD, compare ASD with the devil, it is a poision etc, but now through therapy I just see this pattern has come from the fact I didn't understood things as a kid because I was not able yet. Like I aslo got bullied but I couldn't see the difference sometimes between ''really bullying'' and accidently throwing a ball to me. It was all the same to me. I always wanted to excell and try to be really perfect in everything the fact I wasn't good in maths? I hated it, and I hated it more because people apperently expect when you have ASD you are an math genius. But I needed to go to university to prove I was perfect, I failed left depressed. Before I was BT I needed to have boyfriends just to prove I'm able to have a relationship and not ''someone with ASD who is in celibate, forever lonely virgin''. No, I literally was in a hook up culture only to prove that I can have someone, that I'm desired, only working hard on uni because I need to prove I'm good enough.

ASD is hard working, you are basically pretend to be not yourself and at the end you will totally break down. Sometimes you don't even know what is really happening. Sometimes I don't know I have a panicattack till my husband tells me: ''well, we are moving, you have an important appoinment, it has been really warm and you haven't slept well since a week ofcourse you are sensitive now''.
It sounds to me your brother has been crashed and he doesn't know a way out. if you want you can PM me and share some ideas.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 7:44 am

My heart goes out to you, OP. I'm in a similar situation.

My 31 year old brother lives with my parents. He has diagnoses of OCD and depression, but I believe could also warrant a diagnosis of either ASD or narcissistic personality disorder. He can be kind, loving and funny. He adores my kids, and they love him. He can be a fascinating conversationalist if you're willing to talk about his favorite topics- himself and how he's feeling, gaming, war history. He spends most days playing video games and watching movies. Like your brother, he was bullied as a child, but also had a solid group of friends who (though they have moved on and are married, have kids, are working...) are still in constant contact with him. Like your brother he is allergic to criticism of any kind. If you disagree with him on any subject, it is seen as criticism, and his anger is intense. He believes he was the victim of neglect and emotional abuse as a child. My parents, good, kind, and flawed people, at first tried to present their perspective, but in the end gave up, agreed that they neglected him, have apologized for their failing him as parents for years. His sense of entitlement is extreme. He has no problem asking for and expecting to be given the chair your sitting on, the food your eating, the book your in middle of reading. On one memorable occasion he saw some framed historic newspapers on my walls and asked me to give them to him. And I did. I've come a long way since then. We took him on vacation with us this summer to give my parents a break. At one point he asked for my seat in the car. I politely said no. A little while later he asked again. I said no again. His tantrum was loud and memorable. He called me a bad person, a bad mother, and yelled on the top of his lungs and in front of my children: I want to slap you in the face!!! My brother has been in multiple sorts of therapies for years. None of it's been helpful.

I love him and I hate him. I have so much sympathy for my parents, but I hate the way they tiptoe around him, the way they shape their lives to please and take care of him. I miss the parents I once had; they're a shadow of themselves at this point.

I have no advice for you. In my family, my opinions are not wanted. At this point, my folks can respect (maybe tolerate is more accurate?) the fact that I will not do whatever my brother wants, give him whatever he asks for, but that's it.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 8:14 am

ASD is a disability. It means that he can be very intelligent, have a very high IQ, but will have a hard time with social cues and behaving like a neurotypical person.

Do we demand a person on a wheel chair gets up and walks? Or a blind person to see? No we don't. So why get so worked up and blaming ASD people for their failures??

He CAN have a Mensa qualifying IQ and have difficulty interviewing for a job, or making the deadlines, or organizing himself. The world is a very scary place with scary people for those who have ASD, because no one understands them. The psychologist said to leave him alone because he needs to want therapy for him to have therapy and she is right.

It is frustrating for you, but don't lose the point where this is a real disability, it means he doesn't do it on purpose as much as you want to believe it. He simply can't. And it's a lot of work mentally for him to launch, so let him take his time. Tough love doesn't work here.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 1:08 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

At some point, these men (it seems mostly men) will need to develop some survival skills. At a certain point I would draw my line in the sand and say, you have this amount of time and the then you need to move out.

Parents hate to do this, but nothing else will motivate them. It’s difficult to watch older parents in a situation like this. But a sibling can’t really do anything. You can offer respite care but you cannot fix the person.

I have to agree with every word orchid.
It is sad to see. As an older single I was actually set up with several guys who sound very similar. I think their parents were hoping that somehow if they got married it would help them. I don't think they themselves were interested in getting married, aside from everything else, but every now and then they would get pushed enough to agree to go on a date.
They needed outside help, but like others said, it needs to be directed by a professional. The most you can do is probably to have a serious talk with your parents about his long term future. Maybe they are in denial because the reality is too overwhelming and painful, understandably so.

amother

Tan

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 1:23 pm

I have a girl kind of like this. She's in college. But I wonder if she will finish. And when she does, I wonder what she will do if she doesn't get into grad school, or of she does, what she will do when she gets out. Something always seems to sabotage her, and it's always beyond her control.

She definitely is dealing with trauma from growing up. Having problematic hygiene due to being both sensory and apathetic and not caring about fashion and trends, etc can have major implications for girls. Missing social cues can be worse too. Thankfully, it was ok for her to be rotten at sports and not care about them. But the bullying was complicated. Sometimes it was real, and she either noticed it or didn't. Sometimes it wasn't- she just wasn't a full part of the group.

Our decisions center around how long to pay for school of she never leaves.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 1:46 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

You both are forgetting that this is not a neurotypical person. If it's a person without any disability, I would agree, but her brother has Autism. It's a Disability. How hard is it to understand?? Psychological disorders are real, they are not some behavior excuse.

amother

White

Wed, Aug 26 2020, 2:22 pm

This was an extremely painful thread to read. I have a preteen son who sounds like your brother to a tee. At this age I can still force him to shower etc and he goes to school but I’m scared of the future.
Every time we convince him to go to therapy he goes 3 or 4 times and as soon as he hears a perceived criticism he refuses to go back.
He is an extreme perfectionist and nothing is ever his fault.
He gets bullied but also bullies! Because if someone makes a mistake he will never forget and then bully that person.
He has taken meds for depression but at this point refuses to take it. The only thing that has been working for us is holistic energy work which is so expensive but we really see a difference! We go on a weekly basis which keeps our household at peace and worth the investment at the moment.