S/o When does shabbos begin

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 2:41 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Unpopular opinion here.

Yes, shabbos really starts much later for chassidim. It starts 72 minutes after shkiah.

But, many years ago the chassdish and litvish gedolim got together and decided it was best to establish a set time for everyone.

They therfore comprised that everyone will take in shabbos the earlier zman - shkiah time (as per the litvish derech), and for MS everyone will follow the chassidish time.

But, today most litvish people that I know do not wait 72. So really, I'm not sure why chassidim have to keep their end of the deal anymore.

This!

I actually remember hearing that before it was established that everyone would keep shkiah as the zman for Shabbos, there was a famous Rav (possibly the Chasam Sofer, but don't quote me on that) who would publicly do melacha after shkiah to show that this earlier zman (of shkiah) was not the absolute zman for Shabbos.

Chayalle

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 2:53 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I don't know about publicly doing melacha but I did hear that the Chasam Sofer held that the later Shabbos zman was valid halachically and he rebuked someone for implying that those who kept the later zman were mechallel Shabbos.

I will say that my DH is pretty makpid on lighting and being mekabel Shabbos 18 minutes before Shkia. But I grew up in a large family where no matter what, we were inevitably rushing to the last minute.

And don't know why someone said that most Litvish people don't keep 72 for motzei Shabbos. In Lakewood, the yeshivish/litvish community (BMG) keeps the later zman.

nchr

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 2:54 pm

We do 15 minutes before (not 18). We are makpid to never light until we are into the 15 minutes (so 14 and onwards up until shkiah). Also, technically, there are groups where men continue to do der rabanim malacha even after the shkiah for 10 or so minutes (not our minhag, but the minhag of people I know) because the entire 18/15 minutes was a concept created after the war that many Rabanim (including our Rebbe) did not really agree with but agreed to due for the sake a shalom. For example, in Europe (pre war) many people/towns only lit at around 50 minutes. The forgoing explains why, if you are stranded before Shabbos, there are Rabanim let you keep driving a lot past shkiah (unless you are in a frum area). These Rabanim also believe that 72 minutes motsi shabbos is basic halacha and NOT a chumra.

Edited because there were tons of typos and I wanted to try and make it more reader friendly.

Last edited by nchr on Tue, Sep 01 2020, 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Frumme

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 2:58 pm

nchr wrote:

We do 15 minutes before (not 18). We are makpid to never light until we are into the 15 minutes. Also, technically, there are groups where men continue to do der rabanim after the shkiah for 10 or so minutes because the entire 18/15 mintues is just some united concept that maybe Rabanim (including our Rebbe) did not really agree with but agreed to due to the sake a shalom. So for example, in Europe there are people who only lit at around 50 minutes. That is why if you are stranded before Shabbos, Rabanim (who believe 72 minutes is NOT a chumra like ours) let you keep driving a lot past shkiah (unless you are in a frum area).

That's really fascinating. Can I ask your background?

nchr

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 3:26 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

If I'm going to nitpick, Shabbos probably started closer to 50 minutes (maybe 60), not all the way until 72. The question is when bein hashumes begins. Why we keep our end of the deal? I guess because there are legitimate halachic issues with all of a sudden changing the zman Shabbos after 60 years....

amother

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 3:57 pm

nchr wrote:

Are you saying the concept of candle lighting 18 minutes before Shkia only started after the war? That is fascinating. I dont know why I always assumed it was around forever. I need to ask my grandmother about this

nchr

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 3:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That is correct. It could be some communities had the concept of 18 (or 15) minutes before Shkiah prior to the war, but it only became "universal" afterwards. Prior to war, many communities (including where our family comes from) did not and lit much later than that (some around 50ish minutes post 18). Our Rebbe was very outspoken about this (at the time it was created) and ultimately did compromise and agree to it, but it was in no way standard before then.

Ema of 5

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 4:01 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

We hold that for me, Shabbat is when I light, be that 1 minute early or 20 (which has never happened). However, DH can choose not to accept Shabbat until the end of the 18 minutes, so he can finish shaving or showering in that time if he needs.

Yes, that’s what we do too. I can even outright ask the kids to do melacha for me, like labeling pans or tearing foil or paper towels, if I’m not done by the time I light, especially if I light before the Zman.

nchr

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 4:04 pm

Something else that is interesting is that since our zmanim are halachically different, if we wanted to, for example, early Shabbos could be a real problem certain times of the year because there are times when plag hamincha would occur within 30 minutes of the shkiah (according to how we'd calculate it). I remember once wanting to have an early Shabbos and our dayan discouraged us against it hashkafically but also indicated that at that time of year there was a halachic issue with it as well due to the zmanim.

Geulanow

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 6:32 pm

From chabad.org
"Talmudic times, it was the custom to blow six shofar blasts before the onset of Shabbat. After blowing the third blast, it was time to light the Shabbat candles. Afterward, they would wait “the time it takes to roast a small fish” (which could theoretically be one’s last preparation before Shabbat) and then blow the final three blasts, indicating the onset of Shabbat and that all work was forbidden.

So the time it takes to roast a fish is the same amount of time that candle-lighting should precede sunset. Well, how much time is that?

In a different context, the sages establish that the time to roast a small fish is the same time it takes takes to walk a mil, a halachic measurement related to the Roman mille passuum, which is one thousand paces. Well, how much time does that take? Somewhere between 18 and 24 minutes. Since the smallest number given is 18 minutes, it became the custom to light the Shabbat candles 18 minutes before sunset.

Start of Shabbat

Others explain that the custom of lighting 18 minutes before sunset is in deference to the Sefer Yere’im (authored by Rabbi Eliezer of Metz, 12th century), which holds that Shabbat itself actually begins “the time it takes to walk ¾ of a mil” before sunset. As mentioned, opinions vary on the length of time it takes to walk a mil, but if it is a biblical injunction, then we go according to the largest figure, 24 minutes, so ¾ of a mil would then be 18 minutes.

Although the halachah follows the opinion that Shabbat starts at sunset, out of respect for the opinion of the Sefer Yere’im we light the Shabbat candles 18 minutes prior."

amother

Yellow

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 6:33 pm

DH likes to make early Shabbos in the summer at plag. I somehow am never quite ready when he leaves for shul no matter how hard I try. Early winter shabbosim are really hard for me too. Anyway, I will make sure that everything downstairs is ready for Shabbos when he comes in even if I'm still getting out of the shower upstairs. I even light my candles without a bracha before I jump in the shower so I don't have to do any visible melacha in front of DH or the kids. All I have to do when I come down in my robe is make my bracha and we can go straight into shalom aleichem. It's not ideal, but it's the best we've been able to do.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 6:36 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I may be wrong but I'm almost sure I learnt that after your husband has davened kabalas Shabbos you're no longer allowed to do any melachos.

Geulanow

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 6:38 pm

More from chabad.org article "It is important to note that even someone who does not accept Shabbat early by candle-lighting may not wait until the last moment, and must accept the Shabbat a bit before sunset.
Although the amount of time to be added isn’t specified, the addition must be from a period of time that is definitely still considered the weekday, so that you are “adding from the weekday to the Shabbat.” Merely keeping Shabbat from the period of time known as bein ha-shemashot (twilight)—a period when it is unclear whether it is halachically night or day—does not suffice, since one is already obligated to keep the Shabbat at that time even without the tosefet Shabbat. See Shulchan Aruch ha-Rav, Orach Chaim 261:5."

amother

Maroon

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 6:41 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

FYI did you ask a shaila re the bracha? If you lit the candles you cannot make a bracha later since lighting means you're makabel. It is a bracha levatala as far as I learned. Let us know!

Cheiny

Tue, Sep 01 2020, 7:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

S/O from the thread about arriving somewhere after the zman

I always learned and grew up believing that shabbos starts 18 minutes before shkia. Yes those 18 minutes are a buffer so we are not michalel shabbos de'oraysa but they are a derabanan and not to be treated as optional. Obviously in a case of emergency- someone is traveling on a highway and stuck in traffic so will only arrive into the 18 minutes- we allow it, same way we allow a lot of halachos to be broken for the sake of Pikach nefesh etc.

Was I misinformed? It seems on that thread posters are treating the 18 minutes as an optional part of shabbos

You’re exactly right.