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What makes you lose your place in olam habah?
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ChanieMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:13 am
What makes you lose your place in olam haba?

In pirkei avot, I think, hypocrisy makes people lose their place in Olam haba. And I think also having different weights... And I think, according to one more source, not believing in Olam haba makes people lose Olam haba...

But I've never come across any source declaring that watching movies make people lose Olam haba. Sounds a bit weird to me... perhaps the reasoning was more complex, that watching movies could lead people on a slippery slope that might end in hypocrisy? using different weights? not believing in Olam haba?
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:19 am
I would not spend my time thinking or worrying about these things.

If you think it's wrong to watch TV or movies, then don't do it. If you speak to your Rav about it, he will probably tell you not to do so.

Don't live your whole life looking over your shoulder. Judaism is not supposed to be fire and brimstone, even though so many people turn it into that.

Focus on doing as much good as you can and avoiding the bad to the best of your ability. G-d will take care of the rest.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:21 am
Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:
Right but I don’t know why my husband is anti movies?? He says there’s a world to see and life is better than watching movies etc and I just watch to unwind and relax after a long day and especially during corona


So this is the crux of your question. You want to watch movies, your husband says you shouldn't and brought a "proof" from a Rav.

It's a shalom bayis issue, not a frumkeit issue, per se.

Speak to your own Rav about it!
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TravelHearter




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 11:49 am
I haven’t read all the responses, but I learnt that suicide does
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:02 pm
Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:
Right but I don’t know why my husband is anti movies?? He says there’s a world to see and life is better than watching movies etc and I just watch to unwind and relax after a long day and especially during corona


If he doesn't like movies, then that's one discussion.

But don't let him mix any false religion into it.

I've heard a lot of hyperbole in my time, so when I hear a statement like "movies make you lose your Olam haba," I disregard it automatically. But that's because I remember when cellphones were assur, and then they were okay but texting was assur, and then texting was okay but internet was assur, and then internet was okay but social media was assur, then SM was okay but YouTube was assur...etc.

My personal litmus test: if something is true, then it withstands the test of time. If something is false, then it folds up shop pretty quickly. This applies to everything from religion to relationships. Just wait and watch how things turn out, and you can learn a lot about what their nature was to begin with.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:06 pm
sequoia wrote:
Ask for sources.


Bingo!
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:16 pm
TravelHearter wrote:
I haven’t read all the responses, but I learnt that suicide does
This really should be a spinoff but I will address it here for those reading it and wondering.

Just about every contemporary rav agrees that one who ends their life is actually very, very sick with mental illness and no longer look at suicide like how they used to. The cause of death is illness. One who ends their own life can be buried in the regular cemetery, etc. Not only that, but it is known from the significant number of people who have had a failed suicide attempt that there is a moment of regret sufficient enough to be teshuva.

As I said above, Hashem alone decides who gets kareis. No one else. Everyone can be chozer b'tshuvah. It is never ever too late.
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PeanutMama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:42 pm
Thank you all. Yeah I felt ickish posting it here but I just wanted to know if that’s true lol because honestly I couldn’t sleep last night because of it.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:44 pm
Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:
Thank you all. Yeah I felt ickish posting it here but I just wanted to know if that’s true lol because honestly I couldn’t sleep last night because of it.


Fair enough. I'm glad you asked. May you sleep the sleep of the just tonight. Smile
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samantha87




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:49 pm
I just checked the mishneh, and watching TV and movies isn't listed. Maybe that rabbi in flatbush has a better version that includes it. Can't Believe It Banging head

כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל יֵשׁ לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ישעיה ס) וְעַמֵּךְ כֻּלָּם צַדִּיקִים לְעוֹלָם יִירְשׁוּ אָרֶץ נֵצֶר מַטָּעַי מַעֲשֵׂה יָדַי לְהִתְפָּאֵר. וְאֵלּוּ שֶׁאֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, הָאוֹמֵר אֵין תְּחִיַּת הַמֵּתִים מִן הַתּוֹרָה, וְאֵין תּוֹרָה מִן הַשָּׁמָיִם, וְאֶפִּיקוֹרֶס. רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא אוֹמֵר, אַף הַקּוֹרֵא בַסְּפָרִים הַחִיצוֹנִים, וְהַלּוֹחֵשׁ עַל הַמַּכָּה וְאוֹמֵר (שמות טו) כָּל הַמַּחֲלָה אֲשֶׁר שַׂמְתִּי בְמִצְרַיִם לֹא אָשִׂים עָלֶיךָ כִּי אֲנִי ה' רֹפְאֶךָ. אַבָּא שָׁאוּל אוֹמֵר, אַף הַהוֹגֶה אֶת הַשֵּׁם בְּאוֹתִיּוֹתָיו:

All of the Jewish people, even sinners and those who are liable to be executed with a court-imposed death penalty, have a share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, for My name to be glorified” (Isaiah 60:21). And these are the exceptions, the people who have no share in the World-to-Come, even when they fulfilled many mitzvot: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros, who treats Torah scholars and the Torah that they teach with contempt. Rabbi Akiva says: Also included in the exceptions are one who reads external literature, and one who whispers invocations over a wound and says as an invocation for healing: “Every illness that I placed upon Egypt I will not place upon you, for I am the Lord, your Healer” (Exodus 15:26). By doing so, he shows contempt for the sanctity of the name of God and therefore has no share in the World-to-Come. Abba Shaul says: Also included in the exceptions is one who pronounces the ineffable name of God as it is written, with its letters.

2
שְׁלֹשָׁה מְלָכִים וְאַרְבָּעָה הֶדְיוֹטוֹת אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא. שְׁלֹשָׁה מְלָכִים, יָרָבְעָם, אַחְאָב, וּמְנַשֶּׁה. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר, מְנַשֶּׁה יֶשׁ לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברי הימים ב לג) וַיִּתְפַּלֵּל אֵלָיו וַיֵּעָתֶר לוֹ וַיִּשְׁמַע תְּחִנָּתוֹ וַיְשִׁיבֵהוּ יְרוּשָׁלַיִם לְמַלְכוּתוֹ. אָמְרוּ לוֹ, לְמַלְכוּתוֹ הֱשִׁיבוֹ וְלֹא לְחַיֵּי הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא הֱשִׁיבוֹ. אַרְבָּעָה הֶדְיוֹטוֹת, בִּלְעָם, וְדוֹאֵג, וַאֲחִיתֹפֶל, וְגֵחֲזִי:

Three prominent kings mentioned in the Bible and four prominent commoners who are described in the Bible as men of great wisdom have no share in the World-to-Come. The three kings are: Jeroboam, son of Nebat, and Ahab, both of whom were kings of Israel, and Manasseh, king of Judea. Rabbi Yehuda says: Manasseh has a share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated concerning Manasseh: “And he prayed to Him, and He received his entreaty, and heard his supplication and brought him back to Jerusalem unto his kingdom” (II Chronicles 33:13), indicating that he repented wholeheartedly and effectively. The Rabbis said to Rabbi Yehuda: He regretted his actions, and his repentance was effective to the extent that God restored him to his kingdom, but God did not restore him to his share in life in the World-to-Come. The four commoners are: Balaam, son of Beor; Doeg the Edomite; Ahithophel; and Gehazi.

3
דּוֹר הַמַּבּוּל אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא וְאֵין עוֹמְדִין בַּדִּין, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (בראשית ו) לֹא יָדוֹן רוּחִי בָאָדָם לְעֹלָם, לֹא דִין וְלֹא רוּחַ. דּוֹר הַפַּלָּגָה אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (בראשית יא) וַיָּפֶץ ה' אֹתָם מִשָּׁם עַל פְּנֵי כָל הָאָרֶץ. וַיָּפֶץ ה' אֹתָם, בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה. וּמִשָּׁם הֱפִיצָם ה', לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא. אַנְשֵׁי סְדוֹם אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שם יג) וְאַנְשֵׁי סְדֹם רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים לַה' מְאֹד. רָעִים בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה. וְחַטָּאִים, לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא. אֲבָל עוֹמְדִין בַּדִּין. רַבִּי נְחֶמְיָה אוֹמֵר, אֵלּוּ וָאֵלּוּ אֵין עוֹמְדִין בַּדִּין, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (תהלים א) עַל כֵּן לֹא יָקֻמוּ רְשָׁעִים בַּמִּשְׁפָּט וְחַטָּאִים בַּעֲדַת צַדִּיקִים. עַל כֵּן לֹא יָקֻמוּ רְשָׁעִים בַּמִּשְׁפָּט, זֶה דּוֹר הַמַּבּוּל. וְחַטָּאִים בַּעֲדַת צַדִּיקִים, אֵלּוּ אַנְשֵׁי סְדוֹם. אָמְרוּ לוֹ, אֵינָם עוֹמְדִים בַּעֲדַת צַדִּיקִים אֲבָל עוֹמְדִין בַּעֲדַת רְשָׁעִים. מְרַגְּלִים אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר וַיָּמֻתוּ הָאֲנָשִׁים מוֹצִאֵי דִבַּת הָאָרֶץ רָעָה בַּמַּגֵּפָה לִפְנֵי ה' (במדבר יד). וַיָּמֻתוּ, בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה. בַּמַּגֵּפָה, בָּעוֹלָם הַבָּא. דּוֹר הַמִּדְבָּר אֵין לָהֶם חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא וְאֵין עוֹמְדִין בַּדִּין, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שם) בַּמִּדְבָּר הַזֶּה יִתַּמּוּ וְשָׁם יָמֻתוּ, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר, עֲלֵיהֶם הוּא אוֹמֵר (תהלים נ) אִסְפוּ לִי חֲסִידָי כֹּרְתֵי בְרִיתִי עֲלֵי זָבַח. עֲדַת קֹרַח אֵינָהּ עֲתִידָה לַעֲלוֹת, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (במדבר טז) וַתְּכַס עֲלֵיהֶם הָאָרֶץ, בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה, וַיֹּאבְדוּ מִתּוֹךְ הַקָּהָל, לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר, עֲלֵיהֶם הוּא אוֹמֵר (שמואל א ב) ה' מֵמִית וּמְחַיֶּה מוֹרִיד שְׁאוֹל וַיָּעַל. עֲשֶׂרֶת הַשְּׁבָטִים אֵינָן עֲתִידִין לַחֲזֹר, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כט) וַיַּשְׁלִכֵם אֶל אֶרֶץ אַחֶרֶת כַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה, מַה הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה הוֹלֵךְ וְאֵינוֹ חוֹזֵר, אַף הֵם הוֹלְכִים וְאֵינָם חוֹזְרִים, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר, כַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה, מַה הַיּוֹם מַאֲפִיל וּמֵאִיר, אַף עֲשֶׂרֶת הַשְּׁבָטִים שֶׁאָפַל לָהֶן, כָּךְ עָתִיד לְהָאִיר לָהֶן:

The members of the generation of the flood have no share in the World-to-Come and will not stand in judgment at the end of days, as it is stated: “My soul shall not abide [yadon] in man forever” (Genesis 6:3); neither will they stand in judgment [din] nor shall their souls be restored to them. The members of the generation of the dispersion have no share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And the Lord scattered them from there upon the face of all the earth” (Genesis 11:8), and it is written: “And from there did the Lord scatter them upon the face of all the earth” (Genesis 11:9). “And the Lord scattered them” indicates in this world; “and from there did the Lord scatter them” indicates for the World-to-Come. The people of Sodom have no share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly” (Genesis 13:13). “Wicked” indicates in this world; “and sinners” indicates for the World-to-Come. But they will stand in judgment and they will be sentenced to eternal contempt. Rabbi Neḥemya says: Both these, the people of Sodom, and those, the members of the generation of the flood, will not stand in judgment, as it is stated: “Therefore the wicked shall not stand in judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous” (Psalms 1:5). “Therefore the wicked shall not stand in judgment”; this is referring to the generation of the flood, about whom it is written: “The wickedness of man was great upon the earth” (Genesis 6:5). “Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous”; these are the people of Sodom, about whom it is written: “And the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners” (Genesis 13:13). The Sages said to Rabbi Neḥemya: They will not stand in judgment for resurrection in the congregation of the righteous, but they will stand in judgment in the congregation of the wicked. The spies who spread an evil report of their visit to Canaan have no share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And those men who spread the evil report about the land died by plague before the Lord” (Numbers 14:37). “And…died” indicates in this world; “by plague” indicates for the World-to-Come. The members of the generation of the wilderness have no share in the World-to-Come and will not stand in judgment, as it is stated: “In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die” (Numbers 14:35). “They shall be consumed” indicates in this world; “and there they shall die” indicates for the World-to-Come; this is the statement of Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Eliezer says: The members of the generation of the wilderness were essentially righteous, and about them the verse says: “Gather My pious together to Me, those that have entered into My covenant by offering” (Psalms 50:5). It is they who entered into the covenant with God and they will certainly be rewarded in the future. The assembly of Korah is not destined to arise for resurrection, as it is stated: “And the earth closed upon them” (Numbers 16:33), meaning in this world, and also: “And they perished from among the assembly” (Numbers 16:33), meaning in the World-to-Come; this is the statement of Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Eliezer says: About them the verse says: “The Lord kills and makes alive; He lowers to the grave, and raises” (I Samuel 2:6), indicating that the assembly of Korah has a share in the World-to-Come. The ten tribes are not destined to return to Eretz Yisrael, even during the messianic era, as it is stated: “And He cast them into another land, as it is this day” (Deuteronomy 29:27). Just as the day passes never to return, so too, the ten tribes go into exile and do not return; this is the statement of Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Eliezer says: “As it is this day,” meaning just as the day darkens and then the sky brightens the next day, with regard to the ten tribes as well, although it is dark for them now, so it is destined to brighten for them.

4
אַנְשֵׁי עִיר הַנִּדַּחַת אֵין לָהֶן חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שם יג) יָצְאוּ אֲנָשִׁים בְּנֵי בְלִיַּעַל מִקִּרְבֶּךָ וַיַּדִּיחוּ אֶת ישְׁבֵי עִירָם. וְאֵינָן נֶהֱרָגִים עַד שֶׁיִּהְיוּ מַדִּיחֶיהָ מֵאוֹתָהּ הָעִיר וּמֵאוֹתוֹ הַשֵּׁבֶט, וְעַד שֶׁיֻּדַּח רֻבָּהּ, וְעַד שֶׁיַּדִּיחוּם אֲנָשִׁים. הִדִּיחוּהָ נָשִׁים וּקְטַנִּים אוֹ שֶׁהֻדַּח מִעוּטָהּ אוֹ שֶׁהָיוּ מַדִּיחֶיהָ חוּצָה לָהּ, הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ כִיחִידִים. וּצְרִיכִין שְׁנֵי עֵדִים וְהַתְרָאָה לְכָל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד. זֶה חֹמֶר בַּיְּחִידִים מִבַּמְּרֻבִּים, שֶׁהַיְּחִידִים בִּסְקִילָה, לְפִיכָךְ מָמוֹנָם פָּלֵט. וְהַמְּרֻבִּים בְּסַיִף, לְפִיכָךְ מָמוֹנָם אָבֵד:

The residents of an idolatrous city have no share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “Certain men, wicked persons, are gone out from your midst, and have subverted the inhabitants of their city, saying: Let us go and let us worship other gods” (Deuteronomy 13:14). And idol worshippers are not executed as residents of an idolatrous city unless its subverters are from that city and from that tribe, and unless most of the inhabitants of the city are subverted, and unless men subvert the inhabitants of the city. If it occurs that women or children subvert the inhabitants of the city, or that a minority of the inhabitants of the city were subverted, or that its subverters were from outside the city and were neither residents of that city nor members of that tribe, these idol worshippers are judged as individuals. And to judge the inhabitants of a city one requires two witnesses and forewarning for each and every one who engaged in idol worship. This is a stringency with regard to individuals who worship idols that is more stringent than the halakha with regard to multitudes who worship idols: As the individuals who worship idols are executed by stoning; therefore, since there is a stringency with regard to their mode of execution, their property is spared and is inherited by their heirs. And the multitudes are executed by the sword; therefore, since there is a leniency with regard to their mode of execution, their property is eliminated.

https://www.sefaria.org/Mishna.....ng=bi
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amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 9:41 pm
If you embarrass someone in public then you lose your place in Olam Habo.
"HaMalBin Pnei Chaveiro BeraBim Ein Lo Chelek L'Olam Habo"
I would like to thank my wonderful sister-in-law for doing this to me many times over and giving me all of her good fortune. Now she can blame Hashem for her lack of Mazel.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:00 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
If you embarrass someone in public then you lose your place in Olam Habo.
"HaMalBin Pnei Chaveiro BeraBim Ein Lo Chelek L'Olam Habo"
I would like to thank my wonderful sister-in-law for doing this to me many times over and giving me all of her good fortune. Now she can blame Hashem for her lack of Mazel.


Oy I’m so sorry she is embarrassing you in public! That’s horrible!
My sil also embarrassed me in public a few times, and I felt super lousy after each time. Then I opened a Sefer to learn Torah and the first page I read said “if you forgive others quickly, Hashem will be quick to forgive your sins” I felt like that was a sign and I forgave her in my heart. But I don’t ever want to be near her
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BH Yom Yom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:03 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
If you embarrass someone in public then you lose your place in Olam Habo.
"HaMalBin Pnei Chaveiro BeraBim Ein Lo Chelek L'Olam Habo"
I would like to thank my wonderful sister-in-law for doing this to me many times over and giving me all of her good fortune. Now she can blame Hashem for her lack of Mazel.


Would live a bracha from you - you have such koach from going through that! Though I’m sorry it happened to you
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amother
Linen


 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 1:30 am
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Oy I’m so sorry she is embarrassing you in public! That’s horrible!
My sil also embarrassed me in public a few times, and I felt super lousy after each time. Then I opened a Sefer to learn Torah and the first page I read said “if you forgive others quickly, Hashem will be quick to forgive your sins” I felt like that was a sign and I forgave her in my heart. But I don’t ever want to be near her


That's wonderful that you are able to forgive and move on. You know, the first time, I forgave her also. And then after the 5th or 6th time I had enough. I started avoiding her at family gatherings because I know the inevitable would happen. A single word will be taken completely out of context so she can play the victim, and then go on and on about how wonderful she is Exploding anger and what a terrible person I am. I finally just say "I'm sorry" even though I didn't do anything wrong just to get her to leave me alone.

To those who can forgive and move on with your lives, Kol Hakavod. I will forgive my sil as soon as she stops trying to destroy my marriage.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 3:23 am
ספרים החיצונים
These words jumped out at me from Samantha’s post. Wonder if OPs DH meant this? In times of the Mishnah there weren’t movies yet only books...
Can someone explain what books the Mishnah is referring to?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 6:29 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
ספרים החיצונים
These words jumped out at me from Samantha’s post. Wonder if OPs DH meant this? In times of the Mishnah there weren’t movies yet only books...
Can someone explain what books the Mishnah is referring to?

In the Gemara on that Mishna, it is explained that it means the books of the heretics (probably the early Christians). Rambam (included in the link) forbids reading the religious texts of idol worshipers.

In Modern Hebrew the term is used to refer to the Apocrypha, and in that Gemara Rav Yosef also forbids reading from Ben Sira and the Gemara goes on to discuss problematic passages (some of which are not in our editions of Ben Sira)

The Yerushalmi on the Mishna has Rabbi Akiva referring to the books of Ben Sira and Ben Laana (it's not known who the latter was) but the books of המירם (possibly a misspelling of Homer) and other later works are like "reading a letter". While it's not known precisely when Homer lived, he's referred to in other Greek sources older than Ben Sira, but it could be that his books only reached Chazal later.

I don't know whose idea this is, but I once heard that it could be that what was forbidden was to read from Ben Sira and such in shul as if they are part of Tanach.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 6:40 am
To clarify: reading the classics definitely causes you to lose your place in the world to come?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 6:56 am
sequoia wrote:
To clarify: reading the classics definitely causes you to lose your place in the world to come?

Not unless reading a letter entails the same penalty.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 7:01 am
sequoia wrote:
To clarify: reading the classics definitely causes you to lose your place in the world to come?


I hope not! I studied literature to post graduate.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 7:33 am
I'm not so sure about TV and Olam Habah, but please tell your DH that there is a gemara that if a husband causes his wife to cry, he will forget all of his learning.
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