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Substitute the meat or dairy in not kosher recipe?
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:08 am
Neighbor asked if I wanted an Indian cookbook she wasn't using. I said yes, assuming a lot would be vegetarian and easily kosher, and it does have a lot of such recipes, but there's also a lot of really good looking meat or chicken recipes that use yogurt.

If you wanted to modify such a recipe, would you sooner substitute the meat/chicken with tofu, or the yogurt with a non-dairy substitute? Which way do you think tastes closer to the original recipe?

Also, I could see subbing tofu for chicken, but could you do it for meat? And if going the other direction, what would you use to sub for yogurt? Coconut cream is sweeter and probably missing the acid... Has anyone ever used a non-dairy yogurt? Is it anything like real yogurt?
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:28 am
I'd substitute the yogurt and leave the chicken.
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MiriFr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:32 am
Use coconut yogurt! We are dairy free, and we use plain coconut yogurt all the time in recipes.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:36 am
MiriFr wrote:
Use coconut yogurt! We are dairy free, and we use plain coconut yogurt all the time in recipes.


Sounds interesting! How does it taste?
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:38 am
we hired an Indian chef to cook for an event, and he was perfectly happy using a soya yogurt in the recipes. I can imagine coconut yogurt works well too.
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MiriFr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:57 am
WhatFor wrote:
Sounds interesting! How does it taste?


The actual yogurt tastes like nothing. The end product is always 👌
I use it in cheesecake all the time
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:14 am
Generally I like to sub the meat and keep the dairy, since I feel that meat substitutes are generally better tasting than dairy subs (and usually a little easier on the stomach). That being said, in certain cases like when using buttermilk and yogurt in a recipe, I find making those pareve is better and keeping the meat. (Faux buttermilk = 1 tbsp vinegar + 1 cup pareve milk. Stir and let sit for 10 min before using).

I use meat substitutes like tofu crumbles from TJs (probably the best on the market currently), or products like Frieda's soyrizo. Occasionally I sub it for plain tofu, fish, or beans... Really depends on the recipe itself! E.g. a coconut curry is great with fish or tofu; a burrito with beans; picadillo with tofu crumbles, etc.

Dairy is a little more tricky. You can't always use pareve products exactly like the real ones, so it's more trial and error.

ETA: pareve yogurt is actually pretty close to the "real deal" in that it's just pareve milk mixed with yogurt starter/culture and fermented. The acidity is what helps tenderize whatever it is you're making (same with a buttermilk soak). So they make a pretty good alternative to dairy yogurt in dishes, IMO


Last edited by Frumme on Thu, Sep 03 2020, 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:28 am
What's the main part of the dish meat or the dairy that would substitute the other part
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:40 am
It depends. If it's yogurt or milk, or sour cream and cream cheese, those can be substituted easily with pareve alternatives. The final result will be different but tasty.
But my last experience with vegan "cheese" was pretty vile.
OTOH, not all pareve "fleishigs" is tasty or words either. Make sure the fat content of the substitute will be similar to the original.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:20 am
I sub very often and it really depends on the recipe.

If the ingredient is the main part of the recipe, subbing might not work because chicken or meat or fish have very different textures and flavors than tofu. There are actually some vegan products that successfully mimic chicken or beef - but again depends on the recipe itself.

In my experience yogurt is often used in recipes as a meat tenderizer as well as a way to add acid to the flavor profile. So you can successfully swap soy yogurt for milk yogurt in a tandoor chicken recipe (for example) because the yogurt isn't the star of the recipe - it is there for a specific reason.

Or ghee is used in Indian cooking a lot. Ghee is clarified butter so again one would have to see what the ghee is being used for and then select a reasonable alternative for that purpose.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:21 am
I use so delicious coconut based yogurt in tons of recipes. Its delicious.
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ChanieMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:22 am
actually tchina works quite well to give sauces a creamy consistency... or coconut milk...
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MiracleMama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:23 am
Plain coconut yogurt is the way to go. Fake meat is kind of yuck and it's mostly soy which isn't great for you.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:31 am
If it's spicy, keep the dairy. Otherwise, whatever is easier

ETA - portabello mushrooms seared with black pepper make a pretty decent replacement for meat in recipes, especially ground meat.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 8:18 am
Amarante wrote:
I sub very often and it really depends on the recipe.

If the ingredient is the main part of the recipe, subbing might not work because chicken or meat or fish have very different textures and flavors than tofu. There are actually some vegan products that successfully mimic chicken or beef - but again depends on the recipe itself.

In my experience yogurt is often used in recipes as a meat tenderizer as well as a way to add acid to the flavor profile. So you can successfully swap soy yogurt for milk yogurt in a tandoor chicken recipe (for example) because the yogurt isn't the star of the recipe - it is there for a specific reason.

Or ghee is used in Indian cooking a lot. Ghee is clarified butter so again one would have to see what the ghee is being used for and then select a reasonable alternative for that purpose.


Before I posted, I was inclined to go with what frumme wrote. It seems weird to swap out the main ingredient, which is meat/chicken, but at the same time, I imagine imitation yogurts to be stranger than using tofu instead of chicken. (I haven't tried any of the newer meat substitutes, but I tend to prefer a completely different food, like tofu, to an "imitation" food.) I also had thought along the lines of what you posted - that the acid in the yogurt might be there to tenderize the meat.

But now I'm confused. Are you saying it's not really a big deal to use a substitute that won't tenderize? Sounds like imitation yogurt otherwise has good feedback from most of these posts.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 8:37 am
WhatFor wrote:
Before I posted, I was inclined to go with what frumme wrote. It seems weird to swap out the main ingredient, which is meat/chicken, but at the same time, I imagine imitation yogurts to be stranger than using tofu instead of chicken. (I haven't tried any of the newer meat substitutes, but I tend to prefer a completely different food, like tofu, to an "imitation" food.) I also had thought along the lines of what you posted - that the acid in the yogurt might be there to tenderize the meat.

But now I'm confused. Are you saying it's not really a big deal to use a substitute that won't tenderize? Sounds like imitation yogurt otherwise has good feedback from most of these posts.


To my knowledge, soy yogurt contains the same kind of substances as dairy yogurt so it would provide the same kind of tenderizing effect as well as providing a sour posh taste to complement the flavor profiles. It would depend on the dish of course since.

I am not a fan of fake meat products since they tend to be processed overly. Tofu is different than being fake but I don’t think it works in all cases as a sub for chicken or meat. Depending on the dish, it can be tasty but it would be recipe specific. Firm tofu generally works in an Asian stir fry for example so that is an easy sub if you use the firm tofu of course. You might also have to adjust your cooking technique by looking at how tofu is prepared for a stir fry and then modifying the chicken or meat version accordingly.

I think examining what the original end dish is supposed to taste and feel like is what is important. I don’t think one would be successful Making tandoori tofu but one will have a successful outcome making tandoori chicken with soy yogurt. Of course one might experiment with tofu flavored with tandoori type of spices but it wouldn’t be anything like tandoori chicken.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:40 pm
Thanks, all!
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 3:57 am
I would never use fake cheese. I usually just skip it. eg parmesan in spaghetti and meatsauce. I know some people used nutritional yeast, but I am not a fan of that either. But pareve milks or yogurts, especially coconut milk, works well ime. Also margerine rather then butter (although I prefer oil to margerine) You just lose that buttery taste but it works.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 4:19 am
I use "beef crumbles" in tacos and lasagna, because it's all about the cheese.

In tacos, the seasoning is enough to make the crumbles a good alternative, and then you pile on the guacamole, sour cream, and shredded cheddar. Yum! You'll never know the difference.

In lasagna, the tomato sauce and cheese are enough to compensate for the crumbles. I found that if I mix the crumbles with egg it holds up really well in the dish, and adds extra protein too. I really can't tell the difference from lasagna in my "pre kosher" days.

On the other hand, when making beef stroganoff, replace the dairy with Tofutti "better than sour cream", and no one will know that it's not dairy in there. It's quite convincing. In a pinch, you can use "better than cream cheese", and dilute as needed with a little extra beef broth or parve milk. I've made it both ways, and it's always delicious.

Some day, I'm going to publish a cookbook called "I can't believe it's not treif!"
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MiriFr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 4:29 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I use "beef crumbles" in tacos and lasagna, because it's all about the cheese.

In tacos, the seasoning is enough to make the crumbles a good alternative, and then you pile on the guacamole, sour cream, and shredded cheddar. Yum! You'll never know the difference.

In lasagna, the tomato sauce and cheese are enough to compensate for the crumbles. I found that if I mix the crumbles with egg it holds up really well in the dish, and adds extra protein too. I really can't tell the difference from lasagna in my "pre kosher" days.

On the other hand, when making beef stroganoff, replace the dairy with Tofutti "better than sour cream", and no one will know that it's not dairy in there. It's quite convincing. In a pinch, you can use "better than cream cheese", and dilute as needed with a little extra beef broth or parve milk. I've made it both ways, and it's always delicious.

Some day, I'm going to publish a cookbook called "I can't believe it's not treif!"


Lol I’ll join you. I’m chatzi vegan, and I never tell my guests that what they’re eating isn’t in fact pulled brisket flatbread, real ice cream, or cookies with eggs.
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